Author Topic: 6048e  (Read 32199 times)

madmuso

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 51
  • Karma: +1/-0
6048e
« on: August 19, 2012, 12:03:06 AM »
Hey guys,

new here, was sent here by Mata haze after he helped me out via email regarding a friends 6048 console. Hopefully i can spend some good time in here learning heaps.

My friend and I have been slowly figuring out how to track and mix on his console, we are making some great progress but there are a few things im not sure about. Bare in mind the console is at his place so I can sometimes forget the finer details when posting but i'll do my best.

First thing I wanted to ask is regarding the patch section, it seems the tape returns (from DAW in this case) are routed to 2 rows on 2 patchbays, one bay consists of "multitrack returns and channel line inputs" the other bay consists of "multitrack returns and tape monitor inputs". What is the reason for having the same signal from the DAW going to 2 rows of 2 different patchbays both labelled "multitrack returns"?

The other question is, which is the most common way of recording the "main stereo" output of the console back into your DAW? The former owner of this console had written "mix" on slots 21 and 22 of patchbay row L. So I assumed that this was the main mix out of the console, I ran patch cables from these 2 "mix" slots to slots 1 and 2 of the multitrack sends (row H) patch bay, but we werent getting any signal back to the DAW's converter inputs.

well, hopefully we can sort this last one out so we can do a few test mix's to get used to this beast! I gotta say, these consoles are great, complex yet kind of simple at the same time, if that makes sense. I can certainly see why they would have been so popular when released.

cheers guys,


StefanNowak

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 216
  • Karma: +5/-1
    • Sydney, Australia.
Re: 6048e
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2012, 12:14:22 AM »
Howdy!

The reason there are 2 sets of returns is to accommodate both modes (RECORD and MIX)

In MIX mode, they're feeding the Channel line ins, in record mode they're feeding the Tape mon ins.

For printing back to 2 track, you'll see the patch row with outputs (On the top row of the patch) called LF, RF. They'll take the L and R outs to wherever you send them.

Stef.


jimlfixit

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 356
  • Karma: +44/-0
    • Maidenhead, Bucks, UK
Re: 6048e
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2012, 01:16:15 AM »
To elaborate on what Stefan mentioned, the multitrack returns via DL's 11 and 12, are hardwired to the patch in two different places. They go to row C which is 1/2 normalled down to line inputs on row D. Row C is then also linked to row J which is 1/2 normalled to the tape monitor inputs on row K so the multi returns appear in two places, either to feed line inputs or tape mon inputs depending on whether you are recording or mixing and which fader (large or small) you want them to be controlled by.

Looking at a printed 6K patch layout I have here, I notice that L21 & 22 are not actually labelled which surprised me as these two jacks along with the A, B and C stereo outs are all normalled to the 8 track inputs on M15 to 22 which end up on DL31, circuits 15-22. The answer lies on that patchbay but, how about plugging into one of the stereo outputs that feed recorders for now, such as L27 and 28, L29 and 30 etc? Also, investigate L10 and 11 as there seems to be two lots of inserts on the patch layout I have here which also doesn't make sense! Finally, I've just looked up DL 31 which has Prog L and R on circuits 21 and 22. These are fed from M7 and 8 which are normalled down from L7 and 8 so, my tip is to try L7 and 8.

I will be posting an article on SSL patchbay wiring in due course so look out for that in the how to do technical section. Hope this helps for now. Finally, I have a DL blank and DL 33 layout on my website in the SSL documentation menu if they help with other wiring issues (www.profcon.co.uk).

I should be finding an SSL power cable for Stefan rather than writing this but it's too dark and late to search in the outside shed plus I needed some patchbay therapy!

sintech

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 839
  • Karma: +61/-0
    • Bristol, UK
Re: 6048e
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2012, 01:41:18 AM »
Go Jim :-)

StefanNowak

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 216
  • Karma: +5/-1
    • Sydney, Australia.
Re: 6048e
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2012, 02:11:27 AM »
Jim's the man! we're very lucky to have him here.

Stef.

madmuso

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 51
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 6048e
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2012, 05:12:32 AM »
wow, thanks for the quick informative replies guys, realllllllllllllly appreciate it. :D

Stefan, I have a photocopy here of the patchbay layout but cant seem to find the LF and RF ports you mentioned. strange.

Jim, will try L7 and 8 and also L27 and 28, etc.

So, provided that the main out signal is present on ports L7 and 8 (or any of the others mentioned) simply patching it to the desired multitrack sends ports on patchbay H should see that signal go to the AD converters right?

Is this the most common way of printing your final stereo mix because I have heard of people running the stereo out to some nice outboard first (to slightly enhance it) before it goes back to the DAW. Im assuming then that the main stereo out of the console has an insert available or are they simply patching from L7 and 8 to their desired user patchbay port which has their fav outboard, then from the outboard patching back to the multitrack sends?

While on the subject of the patchbay I just want to make sure that my friend has his monitor/speaker switcher plugged into the correct port, currently it is connected to the "sls 39 and 40" ports on row N. He can switch between 2 sets speakers by pressing a couple buttons in the master section of the console so Im assuming its correct?

my head is spinning from all this patchbay talk! but I love it! kind of!

thanks again guys,


StefanNowak

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 216
  • Karma: +5/-1
    • Sydney, Australia.
Re: 6048e
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2012, 12:20:54 PM »
SLS is the studio loudspeaker mate, that resides in the studio if you have it.

Your studio monitors are normalled to the DL 33, they are typically lablelled MONS.

Stef.


jimlfixit

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 356
  • Karma: +44/-0
    • Maidenhead, Bucks, UK
6K mini's, SLS and stereo distribution
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2012, 04:09:35 PM »
Me again! As Stefan stated, the SLS (Studio Loud Speaker) feeds are just that. They come out of N39 & 40, are 1/2 normalled down to P39 & 40, go to DL 33 and head off to the studio live area so the musicians can hear what they have just recorded on a set of speakers in that room. This was common practise years ago but I have a feeling that they are hardly used these days. Musicians have to take their headphones off to listen and would perhaps like to hear the takes over headphones or even in the control room as the monitors there would be better and more inspiring in a more acoustically controlled environment.

I don't own an SSL anymore so, I'm writing this stuff from memory but I have a feeling that the reason you can't find the LF and RF outputs is because your console is a 6K. These dealt with 3 x stereo busses, A, B and C  for music, effects and dialogue plus a straight L & R stereo mix which seems hard to find so far! The 4K was a 'normal' recording studio console involving stereo and quad feeds (left and right, front and back) so, LF and RF may not existing on your console.

The centre section patchbay wires (rows L&M and N&P) should, I think, all be labelled so, if you see a wire idented as P39 on a DL (33 in this case), it originates from patchrow P, jack number 39. Wires from patchbay points which go to the 2 centre section 104 way 651 Mrac connectors will also be labelled with the patchrow jack point references.

Mini outputs: Your 6K may just have 1 set of mini outputs (L39 & 40). To listen to an alternative set of mini's, you wire the 2 wires out of DL 33 and into a relay box provided by you. The Alt button on the 651 is just a straight switch contact which you need to wire out to the relay box via DL 33 I think. Once pressed, it would trigger the relay to switch between the different sets of mini speakers connected to it. SSL later had mini 1 and 2 outputs without the need for a client supplied relay box but it seems like your console may not have this facility depending on its age.

Stereo distribution: SSL supplied 5 stereo outputs for mastering or client copies on patchrow L27-36 on the patch drawing I have here. These were linked (or probably fully normalled) from M7 & 8, the L & R programme outputs. I will look through the info I have here on the looming specs and post something on that later.

The trouble with this stereo distribution is that, once you connect an unbalanced machine (a cassette in the old days) into one of the 5 outputs, it unbalances all the others so, beware of that. Some studios sent the stereo signals to a separate distribution amp which then fed the various 2 track machines.

I would suggest having your DAW stereo inputs wired separately on the patch. That way, you can use the console L & R inserts to go into a compressor for instance, like you mentioned, and cross patched into your DAW bypassing the group sends/multi inputs patchrow, H1-48. Unless you rewire the patchbay a bit, which could easily be done, this would take up 6 additional patchcords as it involves 2 cords from the insert sends to the compressor or other device, 2 back from there to the console insert returns and 2 from the main L & R outputs into the DAW inputs.

Again, this is from memory so please correct me anyone if I've got my thoughts wrong on this. I'm from the old school before DAWS were invented so I am somewhat ignorant regarding this matter! Haven't DAWS got a set of stereo inputs?

Hope this helps (and I'm accurate with my information) and doesn't confuse you even more!

madmuso

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 51
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 6048e
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2012, 12:05:35 PM »
ok cool, its all starting to make sense, slowly! Im finding that the "old school" language in the paperwork and even on certain parts of the console compared to modern day descriptions is also playing a part in the confusion, but im getting there! Different working methods I guess, the SLS is a perfect example.

You mentioned that the 5 stereo distribution points would all become unbalanced even if one set of those outputs was connected to device that wasnt balanced such as  "a cassette tape machine", I get that, thats all cool, but if I was to patch from M7 and 8 (the L and R programme outputs) into H1 and 2 (which feeds a new stereo track in DAW) isnt this keeping the signal balanced because we are patching within the consoles patch bay? And if I wanted to add a compressor before hitting the converters I could simply cross patch into the comp first, patch out of the comp back into H1 and 2? Or is it a MUST that you have to use the consoles actual insert point when wanting to strap outboard across the main stereo/programme output?

As far as the mini outs go, I think we will need to do a little bit of wiring as you have mentioned because the owner has 3 sets of monitors, NS10's, genelecs and questeds which are all in the control room.

There was another thing I was thinking about today in regards to fx returns. I used to have a small tascam console years ago and I used to simply return the outboard outputs to the line ins on any spare stereo (or mono) channels. Is it ok to do this with this console or do the fx returns HAVE to come in via a particular section of the console such as the "echo returns ports on M41 to 48?

Its about time i answered one of your questions now Jim! hehe. I use Nuendo and it allows you to create as many stereo inputs as you like, however the amount of channels your AD converter has will determine how many you can use at one time. I have 16 individual ins on my converters so for example, I can record the L and R outputs of 8 keyboards into 8 separate stereo tracks all at the same time. Or assign the converters inputs to 16 mono tracks within the software and record 16 separate guitars at once, which is 14 too many, I can live with double tracked guitars! ha!

Stefan, thanks for the SLS clear up!

Thanks heaps guys, you're making this learning curve less painful!




jimlfixit

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 356
  • Karma: +44/-0
    • Maidenhead, Bucks, UK
Stereo distribution and echo returns
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2012, 02:43:18 PM »
As far as I can recall without looking up SSL looming documentation, M7 & 8 on row M are half normalled and not just linked to the stereo distribution L27-36. That means that, if you plug into M7 & 8, it breaks the feed to the stereo distribution (as above) on the patchbay right hand side so you can route the stereo signals into a compressor and then to multi inputs H1 & 2. You could also use the console insert points as well but may need to plug some bantam plugs into M7 & 8 to stop the feed to the distribution if you already have an unbalanced device connected into the stereo inputs on M27-36.

SSL clients had to supply a mini relay switching box years ago which was a pain as it involved more work for the installation people!

On the 651, there are 4 echo sends and stereo returns (via DL 33 I think). 30 years ago, that was fine but people started to return outboard through channels instead to take advantage of the many facilities on the modules plus the TR capabilities. The echo returns on the 651 are not recognised by the computer TR system. So, to answer your point, you don't have to return stuff through M41-48 but you could still use the 651 4 x echo sends and returns for your favourite outboard stuff and cross patch them on the patchbay.

Maybe I can explain the thinking behind the SSL patchbay layout in more detail at some point but not now. Basically, it was designed so that the minimum number of patchcords needed to be plugged in except for, perhaps the SMPTE code going to multitrack channels 1 or 24 on a 2" machine (another subject!).

There are many more stereo distribution units on the market these days which helps. I remember Metropolis in London specifying a change of patchbay wiring in about 1989 when they had their first SSL console to accommodate a balanced stereo distribution amp. Thanks for your info on the Nuendo.

« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 02:52:03 PM by jimlfixit »

madmuso

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 51
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 6048e
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2012, 07:44:54 AM »
ok, I now have plenty of things to try out! so, I most likely am heading to his place on Sat to fiddle with the console some more, I will let you know how we go! fingers crossed!

Thanks again guys, awesome stuff  :D

madmuso

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 51
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 6048e
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2012, 08:07:00 AM »
Hey guys,

I went over to my friends place today and we managed to insert a stereo comp to the main mix. However im still a little unsure of a few things and heres why.

On row L21 and 22 the previous owner has written "mix" and beneath that on row M21 and 22 he has written "insert". I patched from this insert point into a stereo comp then patched back from the comp into the L21 and 22 "mix" ports. works fine. If this is all correct why wouldnt the patchbay be labelled from factory like that? or is this a sign of some modifications maybe? All I need to do now is find a set of L21 and 22 duplicate ports else where on the patchbay to send back to the DAW, this is proving difficult!

There were two other main issues I was hoping to solve, firstly, I still cannot find where the control room monitors should be plugged into in the patch, the only ports I could get any signal from was from the "programmme" L7 and 8 ports so I plugged it back into the SLS ports.  Secondly, as mentioned, I still cant get the main stereo mix from anywhere in the patch to go back to the DAW via H1-48, so we cant print the stereo mix.

Depending on time I may head over there again tomorrow. So after today, the things I am wondering about are:

1) Is it ok to leave the control room monitors plugged into the SLS ports or do they HAVE to be plugged into some sort of dedicated monitor ports. I am thinking that due to the different modes of the console and the way the patch interacts in different modes that they MUST be plugged into the correct specific ports.

2) getting the main mix back into DAW.

Jim, I thought of what you said, having the stereo inputs of the DAW on a totally separate set of patchbay ports so i could, for example, patch from the "stereo mix" compressors outs straight into the DAW's stereo inputs, but then I cant hear what the compressor is doing to the song because the stereo track within the software cant be monitored or I will get a feedback loop. So I have to get this to work via the stereo mix buss' insert points so i can then simply make sure that im not clipping on the way back into the DAW, I can do this via the converters signal displays (as well as the softwares input displays) so the actual software track doesnt need to be heard/monitored, this is why I have to send the DAW an exact duplicate of L21 and 22 (which is what we ARE hearing in the control room).

I really wanted to print a stereo mix today but no luck! ah music, gotta love it hey.

thanks,

« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 08:11:59 AM by madmuso »

jimlfixit

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 356
  • Karma: +44/-0
    • Maidenhead, Bucks, UK
Stereo and CR outputs update
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2012, 03:34:22 PM »
Hi, I'm baffled by the lack of a straight L & R mix out from patchbay L/M as well. My SSL drawing shows L21 & 22 unlabelled but they are normalled down to M and then to DL 31 cct 15 & 16. On the same DL, it shows Prog L & R outs (from M7 & M8) go to DL cct (circuits) 21 & 22 . Try taking the patchbay out and look at the cable idents as this will give a clue. Also look at L/M 10 and 11 for more clues. I'm sure the answer lies with patch L/M as N/P deals mostly deals with returns to the console.

CR monitors should come out of L37 & 38 and mini's out of L39 & 40. I would imagine that, if you plug the CR mons into the SLS outputs as a temporary measure, they would cut out if you were recording as these are a playback function and, logically, would not be activated during a recording as they would spill onto the live room recording mics creating feedback.

To hear a compressor in the final mix before going to PT, you need to hear the results over the monitors of course before the signals leave the SSL as you suggested. Err, so far, I'm running out of suggestions but I would certainly recommend taking the patch out to identify the individual wire idents. Maybe L21 & 22 were rewired by the previous owner. If that is the case, you should easily see the difference in wiring and looming.

Hope this helps a bit more but, bear in mind I don't have an SSL anymore and my thoughts are based on memory and the odd bit of written documentation I have available. If I had your console here, I could very easily sort out these problems.

madmuso

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 51
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 6048e
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2012, 03:28:49 AM »
thanks Jim, you've been a massive help. Im gonna head over there next week so looks like we will have to take the patch bays out to see what is going on.

I forgot to mention yesterday that for some reason on channel 17's insert return was working, all the insert sends work though, strange.

Also, beside the main mix console compressor, there are two identical vertical rows of buttons, beneath the left row is a button labelled external to studio and beneath the right row is "external to monitor", for some reason the entire right row has been disconnected.

Well, more problem solving to do next week, let ya know our progress, thanks,

sintech

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 839
  • Karma: +61/-0
    • Bristol, UK
Re: 6048e
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2012, 03:17:11 PM »
Regarding loosing an insert return, this is 99% the 5534 in the "Patch Return" circuit, on the Channel Amplifier card.

IC9 on a G series
IC5 on a transformer E series

Pop a new one in :-)