Author Topic: Question: drum grouping and small faders as fx sends  (Read 5404 times)

DaveAliveHQ

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Question: drum grouping and small faders as fx sends
« on: March 25, 2014, 04:00:00 PM »
Hi guys,

Just getting to grips with our new 4K and got a question about drum grouping and outboard fx routing .....

We wanted to use our small faders for fx sends to the group busses, but if we do this, how do we also create a stereo group for the drums (or any other stereo groups for combined compression/EQ??) How do you guys set up your reverbs and fx?

It's looking like we'll need to use our auxs for fx on anything we want to subgroup, but then it seems we could pretty easily run out of sends as we tend to group a lot of stuff. Am I missing something? Is there another way to create stereo groups for drums, guitars, bvs etc, whilst still using small faders as fx sends?

Also, do you guys mind if your mono aux reverbs don't pan with the instrument? EG: If we use aux 4 for guitar reverbs, and we pan our guitars hard left and right, do you find it annoying to have the reverb not follow the guitar panning?

Advice much appreciated.

Dave

sintech

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Re: Question: drum grouping and small faders as fx sends
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2014, 04:30:53 PM »
Totally the master of the “shoe Horn’

Few methods you can do, for Drums and drum group, you can maximise the real estate… and get you some FX returns:

If you have a typical drum kit with say 12 mic's :

Bring the elements up on small faders say.. 1-12, switch the eq’s and dynamics to the monitor path, to shape and compress the source parts.

As the kit elements are on small faders, in Mix mode they automatically feed the matrix.

Send them all to Matrix 11-12

Channel 11-12, hit the subgroup buttons. This now acts as a master for the Drum group, and you could if you wish use insert 11-12 to put an outboard comp across this.

This leaves large faders 1-10 free!! to be used as automated FX returns, or drum Parallels. That are by default routed to L/R.

Downside you can only automate the master drum group.

But.. typically, I’m using the spare master faders for stuff like.. my ‘Tom Thunder’ with is actually a Behringer Bass FX fed from a pair of groups. I just route to toms to say 3-4 and then automate the effect on fills!!!

Sounds crazy.. but the results are really cool.

Also.. using a SSL X-Desk as an FX sub mixer. It’s has 16 paths with pan and volume, Typically, my 2nd H3000, Plate reverb, AMS Delay all come back on these, fed to a single Stereo Echo return.

If you can dream it.. you can make it happen on a 4k :-)))
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 04:32:36 PM by sintech »

sintech

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Re: Question: drum grouping and small faders as fx sends
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2014, 04:36:12 PM »
For say stereo Guitars, you want to use Large faders, and then small faders for the reverb send to pair of Groups.. say 9-10

Patch the group outs to the reverb, in true stereo using the small fader pan to make the image.


sintech

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Re: Question: drum grouping and small faders as fx sends
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2014, 04:41:12 PM »
Was lucky to watch some brilliant mixers at work in the 90"s.. and I've just taken all these techniques and used them everyday :-)

DaveAliveHQ

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Re: Question: drum grouping and small faders as fx sends
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2014, 05:17:50 PM »
Bring the elements up on small faders say.. 1-12, switch the eq’s and dynamics to the monitor path, to shape and compress the source parts.
As the kit elements are on small faders, in Mix mode they automatically feed the matrix.
Send them all to Matrix 11-12
Channel 11-12, hit the subgroup buttons. This now acts as a master for the Drum group, and you could if you wish use insert 11-12 to put an outboard comp across this.
This leaves large faders 1-10 free!! to be used as automated FX returns, or drum Parallels. That are by default routed to L/R.

Thanks for the quick advice!!!!

So in this scenario, how would you route the large faders out to fx?
For example, all kit channels to a stereo room reverb, then just the snare to a snare reverb, just the toms to tom reverb etc? Will I still be using a combination of aux sends and individually patched fx?

When I send to FX through the busses, I can see how I can send one channel to multiple busses, but I can't figure out how to do that off the large faders (other than using auxs) once I'm already using the matrix to create my stereo drum group?

It feels weird to not have four main stereo groups like you'd have on a live desk for this purpose.

I almost need two grouping matrix, one for creating stereo multi channel mixes, and another for sending to multiple fx devices :)

Showcase

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Re: Question: drum grouping and small faders as fx sends
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2014, 05:30:00 PM »
Ýou want to compressor all drums together, not just make a parallel drumbus?

sintech

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Re: Question: drum grouping and small faders as fx sends
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2014, 07:52:50 PM »
Bring the elements up on small faders say.. 1-12, switch the eq’s and dynamics to the monitor path, to shape and compress the source parts.
As the kit elements are on small faders, in Mix mode they automatically feed the matrix.
Send them all to Matrix 11-12
Channel 11-12, hit the subgroup buttons. This now acts as a master for the Drum group, and you could if you wish use insert 11-12 to put an outboard comp across this.
This leaves large faders 1-10 free!! to be used as automated FX returns, or drum Parallels. That are by default routed to L/R.

Thanks for the quick advice!!!!

So in this scenario, how would you route the large faders out to fx?
For example, all kit channels to a stereo room reverb, then just the snare to a snare reverb, just the toms to tom reverb etc? Will I still be using a combination of aux sends and individually patched fx?

When I send to FX through the busses, I can see how I can send one channel to multiple busses, but I can't figure out how to do that off the large faders (other than using auxs) once I'm already using the matrix to create my stereo drum group?

It feels weird to not have four main stereo groups like you'd have on a live desk for this purpose.

I almost need two grouping matrix, one for creating stereo multi channel mixes, and another for sending to multiple fx devices :)

In this scenario, I’d be using the Large faders as Automated FX returns (or compressors) as this set up gives me twice the power.. with the same real estate.

You can steal the AUX's to the small fader, sending from either the small or Large Fader paths.

To send the Large fader to the groups, you either do this via the Small Fader (as a send) or Float the large Fader to the Matrix (this disables the Small Fader Path)

If you need 4 stereo paths, you bought the wrong console.. better to get a 6k.

 

DaveAliveHQ

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Re: Question: drum grouping and small faders as fx sends
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2014, 09:11:18 PM »
Ýou want to compressor all drums together, not just make a parallel drumbus?

That's correct. As far as I can see, as soon as I group my drums to a stereo buss to compress them all together, than I have to float them, which kills the small fader so I can't use it for sends.

I think I'll get a couple of mixes done before I worry any further as chances are I can work around it.

Cheers all :)

marcmozart

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Re: Question: drum grouping and small faders as fx sends
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2014, 09:21:41 PM »
There is a million ways to use our consoles.

As far as drums, I bring the individual drums up on the VCA Faders, and use the smalll fader to send to a parallel drum bus that squashes the signal. The amount I am sending to the parallel compression is different for every drum or room mic.
All the VCA Faders for the Drums are linked to my VCA Group 1, so that I can ride both the individual drums and all of them together.

PS: Can we move this to "Mixing and Mix Techniques on SSL boards"?
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Showcase

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Re: Question: drum grouping and small faders as fx sends
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2014, 11:30:57 PM »
Ýou want to compressor all drums together, not just make a parallel drumbus?

That's correct. As far as I can see, as soon as I group my drums to a stereo buss to compress them all together, than I have to float them, which kills the small fader so I can't use it for sends.

I think I'll get a couple of mixes done before I worry any further as chances are I can work around it.

Cheers all :)

There is no way you can kill the small fader while floating. I dont know if it matters but do you have small faders set to "output"
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 11:34:12 PM by Showcase »

DaveAliveHQ

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Re: Question: drum grouping and small faders as fx sends
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2014, 07:55:34 AM »
There is no way you can kill the small fader while floating. I dont know if it matters but do you have small faders set to "output"

Pretty sure we tried everything and small fader did nothing. Manual says float disables path to small fader. However, I realised I'm probably worrying about nothing, as the fx I wanted to send drums to from small faders are all pretty much fx just for each individual channel, EG: kick reverb, snare reverb, Tom reverb, in which case I can just patch to those from the matrix and it doesn't matter if I can't control the send level as Im only sending one instrument to each fx box and can just adjust the input level on the fx box it's self. Any reverb I want to add to everything can be on the stereo cue aux.

This is only really an issue for drums, and only then when sub grouping them with floats in order to serial compress rather than parallel compress.

Thanks for everyone's feedback :)

Showcase

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Re: Question: drum grouping and small faders as fx sends
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2014, 03:28:25 PM »
I dont know if we mean different things with "kill" :)

If you FLOAT, signal is still passing through to matrix...

marcmozart

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Re: Question: drum grouping and small faders as fx sends
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2014, 04:11:31 PM »
Hitting the "float button" sends the big VCA-Fader to the Routing Matrix, where - of course - it can also be sent to the Main Quad Outputs but also to any of the 32 Busses.

On another note - what happens with the small fader when you hit the "DIRECT" button?
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DaveAliveHQ

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Re: Question: drum grouping and small faders as fx sends
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2014, 06:42:25 PM »
I dont know if we mean different things with "kill" :)

If you FLOAT, signal is still passing through to matrix...

Yes indeed, but I don't have independent small fader control of the send level like I would if float wasn't pressed in, it will have a level relative to my big fader.

DaveAliveHQ

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Re: Question: drum grouping and small faders as fx sends
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2014, 06:43:41 PM »
Hitting the "float button" sends the big VCA-Fader to the Routing Matrix, where - of course - it can also be sent to the Main Quad Outputs but also to any of the 32 Busses.

On another note - what happens with the small fader when you hit the "DIRECT" button?

Good question, I'll find out :)