Author Topic: Request for Help - SSL 5000 support (CLOSED)  (Read 14041 times)

Artur D'Assumpção

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Request for Help - SSL 5000 support (CLOSED)
« on: April 05, 2014, 09:29:46 PM »
Hi guys,

We need your help to understand if the design of the 5000 console under the hood is the same/similar/compatible has with the 4000/6000s?

The 5000 has the channel strip broke in modules (much like the old Neves), what leds be to suspect that the backbone and cards might be totally different. But I might be totally wrong here...



In terms of the SSLMixing Computer we are trying to assess if under the hood the electronics are compatible with the 4000s/6000s so we can use the same computer design to support this console. If yes, does make any sense in supporting it at all?

Comments are appreciated. Thanks for your support!

Cheers,

Artur
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 10:54:19 AM by Artur D'Assumpção »

sintech

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Re: Request for Help - SSL 5000 support
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2014, 10:33:06 PM »
The computer service manual suggests a different setup to the 4k


In this case I think fader and cuts are brought over on different cables.

Artur D'Assumpção

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Re: Request for Help - SSL 5000 support
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2014, 10:56:59 PM »
The computer service manual suggests a different setup to the 4k


In this case I think fader and cuts are brought over on different cables.

Sintech,

Could be this a case for the computer to have FADER and CUTS connector? So it supports the 5000 different design?


This brings a problem, if the design that different we might not be able to support with the SSLMixed Computer.  Do you think this would be a show stopper? From what I understand the 5000 wasn't really made for music and it's a totally different system. The only way to support it (if the design is somewhat compatible) is to have a different I/O card for the SSL 5000 bays.

Please let me know your opinion,

Cheers,

Artur
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 11:00:56 PM by Artur D'Assumpção »

sintech

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Re: Request for Help - SSL 5000 support
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2014, 02:07:31 AM »
Most 5k's are chopped for modules.

The reality is, 5k is pretty dead in the water in terms of music,.. and film just went digital.

I would exclude it for the sake of ease.

(sorry 5k owners)

jimlfixit

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New computer support for 5K...No
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2014, 03:14:13 AM »
Yeah, Andy's got it dead right. There is no point in a new computer system being adapted for use with the 5K. Like live consoles over recent years, the film and broadcast world have gradually changed to digital consoles. Just notice the amount and cheap price of 1/4" GPO type patchbays on the market as these industries need these analog systems less and less (which also means I'm almost becoming redundant as well as I muck about with bits of twin screen cable, not fibre optic stuff!).

The SSL 5K was one of the reasons I left SSL as I was heavily involved with that from about late 1985. Every one was different and not straight forward at all. Apart from the number of channels, the configuration varied hugely as well. Some just had 2 sections between fader and meters, others up to 4 and it was mainly aimed at the film and broadcast markets. SSL sold quite a lot to very well known companies like Lucas Film and the BBC but I can't actually remember any recording consoles being made even though that may have happened.

The console PCB's and cabling are different like you state and most modules are just used these days in stand alone racks so, NO POINT in supporting 5K consoles really (again, sorry 5k owners like Andy mentioned!).

Artur D'Assumpção

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Re: Request for Help - SSL 5000 support
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2014, 10:54:02 AM »
Hi Andy and Jim,

This is why we really need the help and input of the entire community. Your help and knowledge is invaluable, thanks guys! :D I am always learning from you, and the bits and pieces of history that Jim throws out here and there is really the cherry on top of the cake! ;)

So, for the sake of sanity and easy of the project the SL 5000 support is now officially dropped.

I consider this topic CLOSED. :D

Cheers,

Artur


matt

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Re: Request for Help - SSL 5000 support (CLOSED)
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2014, 08:04:27 PM »
Sorry guys - disagree (yes, I am a 5K owner .... ),

first of all - it was a little quick for this topic to be considered closed - not half a day if I count it right.


I don't think the computer for the 5K is that much different from the Ultimation computer for the 4K.

Looking at the "SL 4000 Series Console Installation Guide" I see that the back is the same (!).

Here's a pic :






And here's a pic from the SL 4000 Serries Console Installation manual :



Looks much the same, doesn't it ?


Looking further at the 'board numbers', I find, that they have pretty similar numbers, like this

Board                      4000K Install guide    5K Computer manual

Bus Driver Card        622121E1                 82E121
Analog Input Card    622041E1                 82E41

These are only 2 examples - others 'match' the same.

So, before we completely drop the 5K, I'd like to have someone having a service manual for the 4K computer may post some schematics of the boards inside the 4K computer to compare them with what I have here.
I am asking to compare some of the drawing numbers (DRG.NO) and compare them to them of the 5K.

Here is some information on the 5K Ultimation computer :

It's a G-Series computer (I actually do own the G+ Ulktimation)
SSL calls it : SL691G
The block diagram drawing is called : T0691G.41
Drawing of the analog input cards is : T82041.71.2 (E2 version)
Drawing of tape machine interface and clock is : T82043.71
Drawing of the Keyboard and VDU interface is : T82044.72

I don't have pics of the actual boards in the computer handy but will shoot some soon to post them here and to check if it's the same as for the 4K computer (maybe others as well).

Please don't get me wrong here,I just want to make sure that everyone knows what we are talking about.
It's not the console - it's the computer.

And I am pretty sure the computer ist 'the same' besides the total recall option which, btw, is completely based on MIDI on the 5K (lucky me ..... ).

Like jimfixit said : the PCB and cabling of the console itself are much different to the 4K (at least that's what I guess from the 4K install manual).
But, as shown above and unless someone proves me wrong, the computer, especially the G+ Ultimation computer, should be the same.

A side note on the 5K :
I don't think this console deserves it's bad reputation.
It's much more flexible but therefore also more complicated to understand and service.
I don't know who of the ones having bad words for it ever worked on one.

Couple of questions remain  :
what do you consider a 'made for audio' console (sintech) ?
Is the sound of all the films that were mixed on a 5K bad ?
Have you ever heard a song mixed on a 5K ?
Does 'film and broadcast' mean it's 1/4" patchbays (mine has Bantam btw.).   

Anyway - I am glad to know that someone here has knowledge about the 5K (jimfixit....) and I will try to support the development of the 5K computer since I believe it's not that different.
If I am lucky, it is the same and all these discussions are obsolete.

We'll see how it works out.

Cheers,
Matt
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 08:39:59 PM by matt »

Artur D'Assumpção

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Re: Request for Help - SSL 5000 support (CLOSED)
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2014, 08:46:58 PM »
Hi Matt,

You're right I shouldn't have CLOSED this topic that quick. I just didn't want to flood people since I am requesting from the community a bit much at this stage. That was my bad and for that I am sorry. The thread is remain open for discussion (as any other) and we will debate as long as needed on this, we have time. No decision is definitive.

Now regarding the 5K issue.

From what I understand from the computer itself the SL691G supported the 5000 as it supported the other consoles. You might need some different computer cards to support the 5k architecture and mainly, voltages for the VCAs and Faders, but also the Ultimation does. 

Here's the big problem as I currently see it:

If the 5K I/O interface is that different from the others (as I suspect it is) that implies the design of completely new I/O boards. It's not a software issue, but rather a hardware one. For the 4k/6k and 8K we have an I/O module for VCAs only consoles and an I/O for Ultimation. This is true both for Bay cards, and Center Section cards. This is double effort in reverse engineering, hardware design and software implementation.

What eases this process is that the 4K,6K and 8K all share the same console architecture (with very few modifications) under the hood. So it's doable to use the same I/O modules for the 3 consoles. This doesn't happen with the 5k, either for the channel strip and center section.

The first thing that catches my eye is the fact that the CUTS are sent separately from the main S14 cable. That would mean we would need to have one more IDC socket and ADC capacity to be able to connect these. Also this is a clue that perhaps the S14 cable was re purposed and the 50 wires weren't enough and they had to add an extra bus to cope with all signals. Also the fader system seems to be totally different, and this would mean more reverse to do.

Also the different console configurations and customization made scares me a little bit. Since we don't have enough consoles in our user base to be able to understand the several configuration I can imagine that any solution could have the risk to not work on all consoles. This could be a nightmare and a big burden to maintain.

Another difficulty is the lack of systems and documentation regarding the 5k for the developers to test the prototypes and designs.

That's why I think at this stage we should not even think about on the 5K, since our hands are already full with lots of stuff for the 4K,6K and 8k.

But as a project coordinator I'm not letting go the 5k support if I see it is justifiable and our community user base shows interest.

What I would suggest, since this is an open project, is that at some stage a 5K owner would take over the I/O card and Center Card design compatible with our system (all the specifications and interfaces will be documented). With this we would add the support to the software and the 5K would become supported. 

cheers,

Artur

 

matt

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Re: Request for Help - SSL 5000 support (CLOSED)
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2014, 09:54:02 PM »
Hi Artur,

thanks for clarifying that.

I was not aware, that the 4/6/8K don't have extra cuts.
The backplane looks the same, so I was expecting it - probably too fast :-)

I found something that definitely clarifies the difference :



So I proved myself wrong  :( ........ but this will mean, that I am out to some extent.
I do have a lot of information about the 5K series, so if someone is willing to help with the hardware (whichI definitely can't), I am happy to share that documentation.

I think the are regions where these consoles match (i.e. the monitor I can attach  ;D).

Anyway, I will follow this beautiful forum (and add some 5K content here and there).

Thanks
Matt

Artur D'Assumpção

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Re: Request for Help - SSL 5000 support (CLOSED)
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2014, 10:41:22 PM »
Hi Matt,

Thanks for the info. As I suspected there were quite some differences. At this point this could do more harm than good to the future of the SSLMixed computer project. We have to give small baby steps and possibly the future cold include the 5k, but at this point that would be an overkill to design new hardware.

Anyways, in the future new cards could be done if we have the support, the documentations and enough testers to justify this.

And please take into consideration that I am only talking on behalf of the SSL Mixed Computer project, not the SSLMixed Forum. You'll find great help and information for your console here as well you can share all your know-how! :D

Cheers,

Artur
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 10:51:34 PM by Artur D'Assumpção »

matt

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Re: Request for Help - SSL 5000 support (CLOSED)
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2014, 10:58:45 PM »
At this point this could do more harm than good to the future of the SSLMixed computer project. We have to give small baby steps and possibly the future cold include the 5k, but at this point that would be an overkill to design new hardware.
Ya - I think that'll be the case if you also include the 5K

What do you think - would it make sense to open up a 5K 'project' on it's own since it's so much different from the other SSL consoles ?

Regards,
Matt

Artur D'Assumpção

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Re: Request for Help - SSL 5000 support (CLOSED)
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2014, 12:08:54 AM »
I personally think not. You'd be redoing lots of stuff that will be already done and took many man-hours and thinking process, designing, developing and testing.

The way we are designing the system it will be modular and as we're designing the 4K/6K and 8K I/O cards, on a later stage, once the interfaces are stable and documented, one can easily make a new card to support the 5K I/O. After that, the software would have to be added the support for the 5K configuration.

If we have all the documentation, and where we can test it I believe it is doable. But it my opinion it only makes sense if there's is an enough user base to support it and justify the effort.

Even if the 5K sub-project doesn't have the enough support, since this will be an open project one could always do themselves these cards on their own and add the support to the software.

Cheers,

Artur
At least, that's the plan :D

Cheers,

Artur

jimlfixit

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Update on new computer support for 5K!
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2014, 03:50:09 AM »
Hi Matt
Sorry that Andy and I voted no to support a new computer replacement. It's just that the priority should probably be given to the 4/6K users as there are many more consoles to make the development worthwhile to start with. Maybe after that is done, some attention could be given to the 5K if there is a market!

To address and clarify some of your points:
1   Bad reputation?: Having been involved with the build of them from the start, I knew they were a pain in the butt to make and test (after talking with various engineers at SSL at the time).
2   More flexible and complicated?: As above
3   Bad words?: I worked on many of them from the start, although in a non technical role.
4   Bad film sound?: Most likely not as a lot of big, mainly US film companies bought them.
5   Song mixed on 5K?: Never heard one but there must be some surely?
6   Film and broadcast 1/4" patchbays?: Most were 1/4" but I left SSL in December 1987 so maybe more were Bantam after that. Even when I did some work back at SSL in 1988, they were 1/4" as well for some film consoles I helped make.
7   5K knowledge: My knowledge is mostly based on the manufacture of these, that's all.
8   Support development of 5K: You may be right and it is encouraging to note that the 5K computer was roughly the same as other consoles after that. I left before the 8 and 9k came along so I am ignorant to some extent even though I have worked on some since and got asked to work at SSL for a while when the largest SSL ever made (9K 120 channels) was being constructed for a private studio in Brunei (the whole project got cancelled in the end).

I hope I've answered some questions and clarified some points. I see that Artur has already responded to you as well regarding the computer support for the 5K. Hopefully, it can be looked at and incorporated into the new computer design at some point.

Hope this helps a bit and regards from Jim Lassen

PS: Maybe, as I think Artur suggested, this topic about new computer support for the 5K could be moved somewhere else.
Mattia, Andy and I have discussed the 5K users several times during the past 2 years so, perhaps now is the time to separate it out, especially as the forum has got bigger.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 04:00:57 AM by jimlfixit »

matt

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Re: Request for Help - SSL 5000 support (CLOSED)
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2014, 12:09:25 PM »
Hi Artur,

probably I didn't tell it the right way.

I personally think not. You'd be redoing lots of stuff that will be already done and took many man-hours and thinking process, designing, developing and testing.

I didn't mean a separate computer project for the 5K but to make a dedicated place here in the forum for the 5K owners.
So that people who are not interested in the 5K (and I guess that are most of the readers) don't have to read posts about it. 

Regards,
Matt


Artur D'Assumpção

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Re: Request for Help - SSL 5000 support (CLOSED)
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2014, 02:23:45 PM »
Hi Matt,

I think that's something we can definitely think on a later stage. I'd be happy to see a place where we could get all the documentation and technical details on the 5k gathered.

I am prepping a Wiki for the project and forum in general which is a good place to start organizing this type of documentation. I will announce soon.

Cheers,

Artur