3.5 floppy reel disk issue

[Eric Blomquist]

Hey all,

I can not get my reel disk drive to load.

I start with the "main brain" computer power supply off and the disk drive unplugged and off and the disks ejected.   I plug in the disk drive and switch it on.  The reel drive light turns on and stays lit (this is normal).   I turn the ssl computer power supply on.  The reel drive light turns off and the program disk starts blinking(this is normal).  I then insert the program disk and it loads properly.   Once the program disk is loaded, the screen reads "reel disk not ready",  I then insert the Reel disk and hit execute.  The computer freezes and the screen only reads PLAYING MTR at the top right.  The Reel disk drive does not blink at all.   So I shut down the computer and disk drive and restart the steps listed above.  I also tried inserting the reel disk while the program disk was loading.   This resulted in the program disk immediately stopped loading and the reel disk began blinking at a constant rate, and the computer is frozen.

I have used multiple program and reel disks with the same result.

What should I trouble shoot next?  I am at a loss here, and as I explain when I have issues....I'm the only SSL open to the public in Minnesota, so there are no techs up here who have experience working with the computer side of the SSL.  Thanks!

Eric

[waltzingbear]

one odd ball thing to check is the frame connection to chassis of the floppy drive. The floppy is grounded thru the connectors and should be floating from the chassis. For a while the only isolation was the paint on the chassis. Oops.

This can cause a ground loop that makes things weird. It may not be the cause of your problems, but its worth a check.

Alan Garren

[Artur D'Assumpção]

Hi

Could it be also a corrupted reel disk? have you tried to use a brand new floppy, FORMAT it and LABEL it and start from scratch and see what happens?

I also confirm my floppy doesn't have the ground pin connected. All ground is done through the existent cabling.

Cheers,

Artur

[waltzingbear]

now there's an oxymoron, brand new floppy!

Alan

[radardoug]

Has anybody tried replacing the 3.5 inch floppy with this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261233274080?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I've put them into DOS computers and they work fine, you can format them under DOS and it appears like 99 floppies, the floppy number selected by a switch on the front.
As 3.5 inch drives and media die, this is a perfect alternative.

[waltzingbear]

no I haven't, but I can tell you that any old floppy will not work in the SSL. I has to be the right model and have the switches set the correct way, which is not the standard PC way/

Unfortunately not trivial. Rats

Alan

[radardoug]

It would be worth giving it a go though, they are cheap as. The one SSL I service does not use their automation much, so its never come up for us.

[Artur D'Assumpção]

Hi,

This subject was debated a few of times in this forum. The bottom line is that the issue with the floppy is that this is the old SCSI-I (SASI) format. If that wasn't the only problem, the SASI interface was customized by SSL/Computer Automation to extend the SCSI interface. It won't be easy to replace it, but you can try it.

Cheers,

Artur

[Eric Blomquist]

Thanks for all the input guys.  Todays update.  I removed the disk drive from the rack to fix any potential grounding issues. This was not successful.  Next I put in a new disk into the reel disk and tried to FORMAT.  The computer seized up immediately.  I let it sit for a good hour, and it remained frozen.   The screen read Format with a blinking cursor next to it. I don't think the blinking cursor is normal.  When I tried to reboot the disk drive and primary computer, the computer won't load properly!  The program disk goes through the loading process, but after the final dot, the screen goes dark and the keypad won't respond.   I'm a step back from where I was yesterday!  Any suggestions on what to try next?
E

[Artur D'Assumpção]

Hi,

At this stage that you suspect of the reel drive you should take the reel disk out and check if the computer boots normally from program disk. If it asks you to insert real disk just hit CANCEL.

This will allow you to make sure the program drive side is alright.

if this boots correctly what I would do is open the drive rack and switch the drive units. Be careful with any jumpers, just for sure take a photo before so you recover the jumper configuration later. I don't know for sure but it might be possible each drive has a different jumper configuration for ID. If it is true change that also, and when you undo the drive switch also undo the jumper settings.

If this test renders your computer not to load program you've pinned down the problem to the drive itself.

Check if you hear the motor spin when the drive is trying to load. If this spins I would try first to use an floppy drive clean or open it and try to clean it myself. There are several tutorials on the internet that teach how to clean floppy heads.

Let us know what you got.

Cheers,

Artur

[Artur D'Assumpção]

By the way..the blinking cursor shows you the computer is actually working, although it seems frozen. What I believe is that it might be stuck on a loop waiting for the drive to signal that is ready or something. If the drive is failing it will wait forever!

[Eric Blomquist]

thanks for the advice.  I booted the computer with only the program disk in...it seemingly loads properly...all the dots go across the load screen.  Then the SSL beeps and says REEL disk not ready.  I hit cancel...but the computer is frozen.  Won't do a thing.   REEL disk just stays on the screen.  The SSL does not chirp when any buttons on the keypad are pressed.   
Next, I flopped the drives.  When using the original REEL drive as Program drive...the computer failed to even begin to load.   So...that would seem to potentially be a drive issue.  However, it is weird that the computer seems to load correctly with the original Program drive, but then the computer fails when it tries to read the Reel drive.  I can't tell if its a program or reel issue.  Ideas?

[Artur D'Assumpção]

Ok so that's good news.

What happens is that SSL when it boots it tries to load automatically the reel disk after the booting process. Although this can be disabled on the SETUP page, this is the default behavior and the one you have configured.

What I suppose the software behaves is like this:

- Boots
- Tries to load REEL
   - If REEL not present on the drive it gives you a warning and allows you to CANCEL and proceed without loading REEL.

Whats happening in your case makes total sense if the REEL drive is malfunctioning:

  - So the software boots and tries to load automatically the REEL disk. Because your REEL drive is malfunctioning the software hangs waiting for REEL to return.

And you proved that by switching the drives. Once you switch them the computer no longer boots.

So what I would do now is basically try to troubleshoot what's happening with the REEL disk. Questions:

- When it tries to load the REEL led enables?
- Do you hear the motor of the disk spin? Hear carefully because the computer noise is so high that will mask the motor. It's best if you just take out the disk rack and put it over a table open and see if there's any motor movement.

This will allow you do troubleshoot if it's a total drive fail or motor fail. If both are alright try to clean the heads drive head.

Check this video out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6CEVtOlpoY

By the way, if anyone is curious how an 3.5 inch floppy works, here's a curious video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW1WGBcdRuU

Lets us know what you find out.

Cheers,

Artur
 

[Eric Blomquist]

aaah...just cleaned both drives gently with 91% rubbing alcohol and q tips, and now the program drive won't begin to load.  the light turns on for a second when I insert the program drive, then just goes dark.  May have to start looking for replacement.  Good places to look?  I asked Recycled Audio in UK for a quote.

[Artur D'Assumpção]

Hi,

It's sad to hear that.

I don't know if this was the problem, but did you use isopropanol alcohol? That's what you should use for electronic components since it doesn't contain any water. You also fell into the mistake of messing with the Program drive: "don't try to fix what's not broken".

This is also a standard floppy cleaning kit: http://www.amazon.com/3-5IN-FLOPPY-DRIVE-CLEANING-KIT/dp/B0028B7138

Have you connected everything back? Do you have the cable to power the motors in?

Because that's very weird since you haven't done anything to harm the drives.

Get some Isopropyl (Isopropanol) alcohol from your hardware store, open the Program drive (focus on this one) and clean it again. It has to work. By the way, to clean o just need to clean the head gently don't need to do any strength at all.

Dumb question, haven't you switched the drives by mistake while you were cleaning them? The broken REEL is now connected on the Program and that's why it doesn't load?

Here's another cleaning head video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZMmyPbYO_E

Cheers,

Artur