Author Topic: Help troubleshooting Ultimation fader problem **SOLVED**  (Read 813 times)

Artur D'Assumpção

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Help troubleshooting Ultimation fader problem **SOLVED**
« on: December 03, 2014, 01:00:05 AM »
Hi guys,

I am in need of your help to troubleshoot a problem I am having in 2 ultimation faders on my 6000 G plus (1994).

One of these faders has this problem for a few months now, the other developed a similar problem during the last 2 weeks. I count on your help to try to source the flaw. I know this will not be easy or straight forward, so I anticipate in thanking you all for your patience and time.

Symptoms:

Faders don't move correctly. They get stick during the travel and most important, they tend only to go UP, and not DOWN. The affected faders also overshoot the landing position when moving in the only direction that's still working.

I made a couple of videos explaining the problem and my troubleshoot endeavors so far. This will be easier to to explain everything.

If you want to skip the entire explanation below check now the following videos:

http://youtu.be/05NAhebwvAs (part 1)
http://youtu.be/45S9S59_Jz4(part 2)
http://youtu.be/TQ5U5ogxuIY (part 3)


Faders afected:

- Fader 15
- Fader B bus

 
What I have done so far:
 
The first think I suspected was the usual suspect dirty fader.

I have disassembled, cleaned and lubricated Fader B bus using Keith Andrews (SSLTech) method - http://prorecordingworkshop.lefora.com/topic/3861608/Faders-smoothness-gone

This gave the fader a fast action and very soft feel, almost better than new to be honest. But since the problem persisted I haven't gone through the same procedure  with Fader 15, since this felt already good and showed the same symptoms. - After solving these problems I will make a special post explaining in detail (with video) how to clean the fader using Keith Andrews technique. 

Here's a gallery with the disassemble photos (not the actual cleaning procedure):

http://s1362.photobucket.com/user/adassumpcao1/slideshow/SSL%206000Gplus/SSL%20Ultimation

Here you can see the fader seems to be either Rev 07 or 08.





-

At this stage I realized I would have to go deeper and that the problem wouldn't be fixed with a cleaning job. The first thing I decided to do was go through the Servo DC Motor calibration procedure described on the Ultimation Service Manual to take it out of the way and make sure everything was calibrated. I did this through the entire console, calibrating VR4 = 0000 when fader fully open and VR5= 1023 when fader fully closed.

Here's a few photos:

This the fader bus card under one of the channel bays, where you can see the pair of calibration holes to access the pots on each fader.




This is from the testing routines. Fader Level Input computer read - when ALL faders fully open



This is from the testing routines. Fader Level Input computer read - when ALL faders fully closed



There are some discrepancies in there but these are within specs (there's a threshold safe setting). It seems the mechanical contacts/mechanism on the fader track extremities don't allow this process to always be accurate.

-

I did a couple of tests that led me to exclude (I hope) Touch Sense circuit issues and suspect of a problem in the motor control circuit or stall detection (for fader C bus). Please check these videos that explain in detail the steps I've gone through:

http://youtu.be/05NAhebwvAs (part 1)
http://youtu.be/45S9S59_Jz4 (part 2)

NOTE: there was no problem with the 3rd fader that showed symptoms on the video (C bus fader), sometimes the testing routines can give you unexpected results.



I also did a Touch Sense frequency measurement to check if there was an obvious problem with the TS circuit (this was done before I did the fader bit reading so I didn't knew it was being correctly detected). With this test I wasn't able to conclude anything to be honest, other than that some faders have similar frequencies, others have totally different frequencies (no good/bad fader correlation was possible). The service manual states it should be around 150kHz, but I found them to be all around. 

One thing that caught my attention was the the detected frequency for Fader 15 (one of the problematic) was very low around 25kHz, although this seems to be working. I don't know if this means anything.

http://youtu.be/TQ5U5ogxuIY (part 3)

Thanks for your help guys!

Cheers,

Artur


 


 
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 09:59:20 PM by Matt Sartori »

waltzingbear

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Re: Help troubleshooting Ultimation fader problem
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2014, 07:42:50 PM »
I wouldn't worry about the frequency at this point, as long as the test on the monitor shows the touch working. One point there is to try it at different fader positions, especially the extremes of travel. There can be situations where the slider just barely touches something upsetting the circuit.

The first thought I have is that you aren't getting drive to the motor in the down direction. This usually happens when you lose part of the drive circuit, fuse/transistor/resistor/broken trace.... But you had intermittent response on one, so maybe a broken or bad trace/connector? Look at the drive to the motor, I'll bet you don't see any in the down direction, then start following it backwards thru the path. 

also have you tried them in different slots?

then once you get the fader traveling, start looking at the frequency. The one in the audio range is a potential problem, you can often hear those. Also check the faders to see if they aren't just different production runs or something similar, that is not a rigid oscillator and relys on potential variable parasitic parameters to define the actual working frequency.

Alan
Alan Garren
Waltzing Bear Audio

Artur D'Assumpção

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Re: Help troubleshooting Ultimation fader problem
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2014, 12:26:39 AM »
Hi Alan,

I've just finished cleaning Fader 15. It is now clear that I have a vast amount of fader varieties. I have test stamps that goes from 94, up to 2008 on different faders. Also the components and motors can be a bit different from fader to fader, which clearly indicates several versions/revisions of the faders were used during the console life. The console only had one owner and all the maintenance was done by SSL, so everything is SSL certified. 

One clear difference that stood out was the small TS circuit card:

Fader B bus 



Fader 15:



Clearly you can see the TS circuit module on the Fader 15 is molded in a plastic gel. I suppose this was made to make the circuit more stable and less susceptible to outside interference? This also means it's not fixable if some component fails. The only way is to replace the complete module. And with the lack of parts these days, the only way is do it like Paavo did, designing a new board with alternative/compatible components and replace from there.

Here is the entire gallery with the 2 faders: http://s1362.photobucket.com/user/adassumpcao1/slideshow/SSL%206000Gplus/SSL%20Ultimation

Anyways, back on topic. Tomorrow I will start doing the tests you suggested. I hope I can access the signals through the fader bus card under the knee panel. I don't have an extender card which makes everything much more difficult. I am currently in the process of finalizing the design of a new one and manufacture it.

Thank you Alan, I will give updates soon!

Any other inputs and tips I'd be appreciated.

Cheers,

Artur
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 12:29:26 AM by Artur D'Assumpção »

Artur D'Assumpção

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Re: Help troubleshooting Ultimation fader problem
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2014, 10:44:39 PM »
Hi guys,

I have made some videos of further more trouble shooting.

Today I cleaned Fader 15 and while testing it was a rollercoster of results. Sometimes it worked, others it didn't. Clearly there must be some failing component or worn capacitor.

Here are several videos I have made:

- First impressions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob2tHciheZk

- If I give it time it will eventually recover and then fail again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5425LAdKqDY

- I switch fader positions with a neighboring one and it fixed the problem (so I thought)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llVg9hpZDHc

- When I realized it wasn't fixed at all... the problem gradually appears
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwgDfGp3Rh4


Last I was having a problem too on Fader 17, but I thought it just needed some cleaning because it felt stiff. But after cleaning the problem persists with a symptom of "shaky" fader:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11oRAm_a98M

If you guys have any more tips I'd be appreciated! Thank you!

Cheers,

Artur

jwhmca

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Re: Help troubleshooting Ultimation fader problem **SOLVED**
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2017, 06:31:03 PM »
This says **SOLVED** what is the solution???
"It's all about being a servant."

Josh Moran

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Re: Help troubleshooting Ultimation fader problem **SOLVED**
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2018, 02:03:03 AM »
Dealing with a few shaky fader & faders not CALing right on our SSL 8000 G+ any tips?

Thanks,

- Josh

Artur D'Assumpção

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Re: Help troubleshooting Ultimation fader problem **SOLVED**
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2018, 05:44:26 PM »
Please open a new thread and describe thoroughly the issue if possible provide videos of the different cases. I'll try to help as I can.