How Hard are You Guys Hitting The Mix Buss?

[Druhms]

I was wondering how hard you guys hit the Mix Buss on Mixes?  I know that most of us realize the magic that happens when nailing the meters on an old E or G series....but how much is too much?
I tend to mix a lot of Rock, gtrs and drums, and find the sweet spot when the 2 buss meters are barely backing off of the "pegged" positions.  In between the Kick and Sn, the 2 buss VU meters will slightly bump backwards.  Sometimes,  depending on the song,  I think that might be a touch hard,  but other times,  I think that adds a little magic.
What do you guys do for rock mixes?
Thanks,
JJ

[Matt Sartori]

if it still moves you are not pushing enough 

I guess it depends on the music, I have recently mixes a jazz album and hitting the mix buss did not bring anything but top end saturation, lazier transient response and a bit too much aggressiveness to the mix...

but it if guitar,bass and drums rock based then.... they have to break on the end stop...as far as I am concerned...
 

my 2 cents
Mattia.

[xmax]

I have witnessed plenty of sessions where they were pegged the entire time.
Too much is when it sounds bad. 

[Artur D'Assumpção]

Hi guys,

I am curious, what are you guys using to control the return level into protools? Burying the VU meters will put your protools way over the redline!

I personally am using a pair of custom fixed db attenuators patched in the console's output. I am actually planing on expanding this further and design some simple variable H-Pads to have more control. I have to test this to make sure it doesn't affect too much the frequency response.

I know of people that patch in instead other gear in the 2-bus that allows to control the output, for instance a compressors with input/output level control.

Cheers,

Artur

[PelleG]

....
I personally am using a pair of custom fixed db attenuators patched in the console's output. ...

Sorry if this offset the topic a notch. Why is the master fader considered a bad choice?

I had this discussion with a friend the other day. It was a few years ago I mixed on an SSL but I always used to set the level to tape with the master fader.

Is it a matter of an attenuation "high end" factor? or is it just a case of more buffers to slam?

[sintech]

Got a 10 dB Pad on the Pre-VCA insert send, attenuating into my bus compressor.

These day it's mainly a Focusrite Red 3 with Al Smart Sidechain filters, sometimes the Quad depending on the track

This allows an extra 10dB so I can just tap the comp.

[Druhms]

     My typical 2Buss processing takes place after the mix leaves the console.  The level comes out of the console pretty hot, but then I knock it down with my Mix Bus Processing chain.  I do it this way for a couple reasons.  My first reason is that's how I've always done it.  I've gotten use to working this way on every console.  Some consoles don't have balanced inserts on the Mix Buss.  Some don't have inserts at all.  I know that isn't a problem with SSL's,  but it's a habit I've built over the years.  Another reason for not using the Inserts on the Mix Buss, is to make sure I'm pushing the Mix Buss hard at every step of the way. Pushing this board adds a little magic for certain mixes.  Admittedly, I don't truly know where the Mix Buss Inserts are actually inserting,  so I just play it safe by processing after the board.   But, I can see where the Mix Buss Insert can help the onboard compressor become more useful.
    I often come out of the SSL -> comp ->  3-4 band eq -> faster comp -> 1- 2 band eq for wide Q touch ups.  My comps never move more that 1 or 2 db and try hard not to use my Mix Buss eq's for correcting balance or super tight fixes.  I try to keep my eq moves around 1 - 3 db.
    I then print to 2trk.  If I need a fade out,  I just draw it on my 2trk mix.  I don't worry about automating Fade Out's on the console.
Any thoughts?
Thanks a bunch!
JJ

[Showcase]

....
I personally am using a pair of custom fixed db attenuators patched in the console's output. ...

Sorry if this offset the topic a notch. Why is the master fader considered a bad choice?

I had this discussion with a friend the other day. It was a few years ago I mixed on an SSL but I always used to set the level to tape with the master fader.

Is it a matter of an attenuation "high end" factor? or is it just a case of more buffers to slam?

I agree, why not just bring down the master fader??? It has nothing to do what level mixbus is hit

[Artur D'Assumpção]

If I recall correctly, the master fader VCA and the VCA compressor are one and the same. Messing with the master fader level affects the gain structure of the compressor.

[Druhms]

If I recall correctly, the master fader VCA and the VCA compressor are one and the same. Messing with the master fader level affects the gain structure of the compressor.

Ah!  Interesting point!  So,  if you were using the Onboard Comp to play an important role in your mix "sound", then using the Master Fader to Fade Out a song would make the Onboard Comp respond differently as you faded out. 
That could be important to many people.
Thanks!
JJ

[Showcase]

When you turn the fader down, it only affects the output, so pegging the meters without bringing it down with master fader sounds a little strange to me

[sintech]

If I recall correctly, the master fader VCA and the VCA compressor are one and the same. Messing with the master fader level affects the gain structure of the compressor.

Ah!  Interesting point!  So,  if you were using the Onboard Comp to play an important role in your mix "sound", then using the Master Fader to Fade Out a song would make the Onboard Comp respond differently as you faded out. 
That could be important to many people.
Thanks!
JJ

Yeah, you want to use the Pre VCA Insert to apply a compressor over the 2bus, it will then be pre master fader. Otherwise as you point out.. any adjustment to the master fader would change how things sounded.

[Druhms]

Good to Know!  Thanks!
JJ

[marcmozart]

I think we need to make a signal flow diagram for the mix-bus as the important question would be "which components are responsible for the positive side-effects that we like to hear from saturating the mix-bus?"

I personally have been more conservative with mix-bus levels.

[Druhms]

Agreed.  Where in the Mix Buss are these magical components that we enjoy slamming?  I guess I could make a respectable effort to find the drawings and figure it out.  But,  since this board has some highly skilled techs,  it would be insulting to consult a drawing before some of these guys!  Ha!  Joking aside,  it is a privilege to actually bounce ideas around with people that truly know these consoles.  Schematics rarely show the voodoo deep inside!
JJ