Author Topic: Automation System for a 5K  (Read 1888 times)

Artur D'Assumpção

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 641
  • Karma: +21/-0
  • Sintra, Portugal
Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2015, 11:24:03 AM »
The ultimation faders and VCA faders both send CV to the computer and back. The difference is that ultimation faders, when in motors ON mode, the control voltage that's returned by the computer controls the motors, which move the fader and affect the audio (the audio passes through the fader). In VCA faders mode (motors OFF) it behaves much like the VCA faders (non moving). The CV send/returns goes from and to the VCA amp. In this case the fader track controls the VCA level and doesn't pass any audio. 

Are the 506/508 faders the non moving ones that shows on the photo?

Helterbelter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 43
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • Zevenaar, The Netherlands
Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2015, 11:49:09 AM »
Yes, correct.

non-moving VCA faders, and, they also have the ability to follow DC groups.


PelleG

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Karma: +8/-1
    • Stockholm, Sweden
    • Automan
Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2015, 05:42:47 PM »
As I don't have enough time to implement all different interfaces I happily donate some of my hardware for anyone who wants to extend it with ultimation, 5K or what not.
I've already approached Artur about this but I understand that you all prioritize the SSL mixed project.

If you want to fast forward you can use my hardware and develop your own in/out card. Or just use some kind of adaptor from my EX08 card.

I've got open source libraries for xCode (C/C++/Obj-C) and NodeJS.
I also got some semi-open Windows code and a ready to go HUI app(OS X) which converts between my protocol and HUI.

I come in peace :-)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 05:45:57 PM by PelleG »

matt

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • Reutlingen, Germany
Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2015, 07:13:20 PM »
Hi Pelle,

that'd be great if I could get some parts and libraries from you so I can experiment with my 5000 stuff.

Matt

PelleG

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Karma: +8/-1
    • Stockholm, Sweden
    • Automan
Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2015, 07:49:39 PM »
If it's just the hardware pin out that needs to be joined. And, if it's just +5 cv back and forth. Then you don't need to change anything on my software side.
So, I guess some kind of an adaptor could be used.
Even for ultimation.
You'll need something to convert the serial commands for switches and LEDs to adapt to the hard wired lines.
This is ultimation. I don't know how the 5k does it.

Another approach would be to develop a new card for my backplane.
That would need firmware of course and while it's doable it's a longer road.
I use PIC processors and I write C code compiled with Microchip C18.

PelleG

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Karma: +8/-1
    • Stockholm, Sweden
    • Automan
Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2015, 07:54:05 PM »
The chassis is the most expensive part. If you get my backplane board alone with one EX08 card you'll get in and out of a computer thru USB. Either my old windows app or the new one which is under OSX.
Power it with +-12V.

PelleG

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Karma: +8/-1
    • Stockholm, Sweden
    • Automan
Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2015, 08:03:36 PM »



Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

PelleG

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Karma: +8/-1
    • Stockholm, Sweden
    • Automan
Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2015, 08:08:04 PM »
If you really need to brew your own software I use standard HID protocol.
I'll give you a data map of the CV96 protocol.


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

matt

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • Reutlingen, Germany
Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2015, 08:16:42 PM »
Well, I don't NEED to brew my own software but I want to be able to maybe enhance it if necessary.
If it comes to hardware development of a new board though, I am lost.
I can adapt things to a certain extent but my main knowledge is programming.
Once I did do some coding for a HUI software so that I can use my Sony DMX100 with PT.
And I really would like to build an interface between my SSL and a DAW ..... much like THD is doing it.

PelleG

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Karma: +8/-1
    • Stockholm, Sweden
    • Automan
Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2015, 08:57:33 PM »
Ok,
I understand.
Well, I guess both my system and the Canadians has that feature already.

I'm not sure I'll give away free hardware for a personal brew without kick back opportunity.
An Ultimation add-on would be sweet though since it would extend the range.
I'm already working on implementations for other console makers to broaden the CV96's compability.
It was also used as a synth modular controller once with great success. :-)
http://www.hackathon.io/projects/4440

Still, I can give you the HID protocol + the HUI router if you want to fork it in someway.
I don't want to shoot Artur and the SSLmixed Computer in the foot though.





Artur D'Assumpção

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 641
  • Karma: +21/-0
  • Sintra, Portugal
Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2015, 09:29:10 PM »
PelleG,

Like i said before, we are not competition, our projects have different goals.  We are very happy to see your system move forward and get more and more evolved packed with features. Hell yah, you've been the first to pave the road ahead, you deserve a cake and a 6 pack of beer! ;)

And as you know, we've been able to chat several times, I am glad to share any know how as I know you'll do the same. We are an open community and that's the entire goal of this endeavor. I understand that you have a business and an investment to manage and that your approach needs to be different, but you'll always be welcome here and we'll always be willing to help with whatever you need. In the end, we all have to gain. I don't have any objections with any other endeavors and projects, I'll be quite happy to see the community interested and committed. Only this way we'll guarantee we'll have working consoles in 20 years! ;)

Regarding the Ultimation, the big difference is the control bus. While control voltage is retro-compatible with VCA faders, all the rest its not. The control bus (CA Bus) allows to read/write an 8 bit word from/into the fader electronics. Here's a summary of what can you do with the bus: group thumbwheel (something you can't do with VCA faders), status switch, cut switch (it's a bit not a voltage), touch sense, servo/motor fail, TR selection, Trim, Abs, Alt LEDs, Solo Isolate, CUT from computer, Motors off, VCA select. All this is done through the CA BUS, interfaced by the CA card on the computer, which replaced the LEDS & Switches card.

One need the right electronics, the correct polling rate, to read and write into these pins. You can't do that with the same VCA card electronics.

Cheers,

Artur





« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 09:32:43 PM by Artur D'Assumpção »

Artur D'Assumpção

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 641
  • Karma: +21/-0
  • Sintra, Portugal
Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2015, 09:45:04 PM »
By the way, still on the 5000 topic, I think whoever is interested to support the 5000s should start by studying the service manuals, checking cable interface, pinouts, voltages... Overall, what's really necessary and what are the differences between the other SSL models. With this, I think both Pelle's system, or even the SSL Mixed Computer system are modular enough to develop a 5000 I/O card and work with it. The backbone is all the same, if the cards know how to talk with each other, the rest is much like plug & play. Of course there might be necessary some software development, but I guess even this one can be made modular to enable to plug module extensions. If not, and now I talk as manager of the SSL Mixed Computer project, we'll be more than willing to develop the necessary software to support the I/O module, or open the code to enable this.

Just my 2 cents,

Cheers,

Artur

PelleG

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Karma: +8/-1
    • Stockholm, Sweden
    • Automan
Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2015, 10:20:27 PM »
Cool beans!

About the CA bus. Is this a bus with ONE master at the computer end talking to all faders or is it handled thru every fader?
I know I looked at it some year ago and I think understood it then. Forgot it now.
It was a simple addressing - read/write thing.

Either way, I guess an adapter card just handling that bus could be a pretty quick fix for my system.
I guess the simplest thing would be to translate the Ultimation switches and LEDs to emulate the existing ones on my motor fader.
Then the protocol can remain untouched.

Since I don't know a local Ultimation desk I pushed it to the (infinite) future.
But, if someone can help me with the testing/developing I can route/layout/program something pretty quick.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 10:58:16 PM by PelleG »

matt

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • Reutlingen, Germany
Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2015, 10:47:25 PM »
Hi Pelle, hi Artur,

Pelle, I don't want this for some personal brew.
What I see is, that I can't get further without hardware support. And I think it makes no sense that I start something completely new just fo myself.
The communication with other interested people is what a project really drives forward.
I am willing to share my efforts with the community and to see this as a different approch.

Artur stated that the 5000 consoles are not the primary goal for the SSLmixed computer. So the only thing I can do is to put as much effort in the 5k support as I can.
So I was glad about your offer for hardware since I can do software better and wouldn't have to care about hardware development but can concentrate on the software.

But I'm glad if you share the HID protocol and the HUI router - so that's a starting point as well.

Artur : I've already digged deep into the bits and pieces of the 5k .... not deep enough to understand everything though.
I also requested a forum for the differences between the desks if you remember.
Since I don't have all the docs for the 4K/6K/8K there's no way for me to know all the differences in  detail.
I'd really like to contribute but don't feel 'heard' as a 5k owner - somehow.

Anyway - we'll see where this leads us to - hopefully stuff that's valuable for everyone

Matt

PelleG

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Karma: +8/-1
    • Stockholm, Sweden
    • Automan
Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2015, 11:01:31 PM »
I understand fully. It would help my system as well.

But. If you've got ultimation faders then you'll need is the hardware to talk digitally to them.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 11:03:17 PM by PelleG »