Author Topic: Automation System for a 5K  (Read 1884 times)

Artur D'Assumpção

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Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2015, 10:53:27 AM »
Hi guys,

Regarding the 5000 support we have decided not to invest there due the very little amount of consoles out there, the complex console configuration variations which would raise even more question marks, and the inherent different interface to the console, which implies more ports and space (depending on the fader system). We decided that at this point, the priority would be the 4/6/8k consoles, which we are full-filling as our time and dedication allows to. We need to focus building a good well established base, hardware and software wise. This doesn't mean we can't look at the 5000 consoles in a future term...but no compromises.

With this said, and since the SSLMixed Computer project was always intended to be a community effort, we support community efforts to enable the 5000 support into our hardware base, if there is enough interest. It's never an easy task, and be prepared for a long journey, since the R&D, hardware development and prototyping does take time, specially if you're not doing this on a daily basis. This is why we encourage that any initiative in this direction should be coordinated so no one falls into a bottomless pit.

We are currently carrying out field tests of our hardware base, and we hope to have more stuff soon ready to show you guys. I suppose any 5000 R&D, and considering the time it takes, could fall into our timeline, since by then our hardware base would be ready to test and plugin "3rd party developed" hardware modules.

I think, if a good R&D phase is carried out, the output will serve to build either a module for a SSL Mixed Computer or a Pelle's CV96.

Cheers,

Artur

« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 10:57:12 AM by Artur D'Assumpção »

Artur D'Assumpção

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Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2015, 12:34:56 PM »
Hi Pelle,

Regarding Ultimation, it's not easy to condense here how the entire system works. But basically the key aspects you need to understand how the system works is basically that these faders user the same send/return lines, with similar voltages (to the VCA fader system), to control either the motor DC (motors on) or the VCA amp (motors off), the latter much like the VCA consoles. 

All the rest you see on the fader is now controlled by the CA bus (digital bus), namely, the computer (through the CA card which replaced the Lights & Switches card on the non-ultimation system). Some of the controlled elements I already stated before: LEDs, switch, CUTs read/write, motors mode (on / off), thumbwheel group, etc. The CA bus is not a serial bus, but rather a parallel bus, were 8 bits are sent/return for read/write operations. The read/write operations are controlled in a polling fashion where the computer poles each fader in a bank (bay), bank by bank.  The faders are not autonomous (asynchronous), they are slaved to the computer control. So, for write operations the computer has to WRITE 8 bits with the status it wants, for the read operation, the computer as to READ 8 bits with the status the fader has at that particular time.

While in the VCA faders the computer has direct access and even controls/powers directly some of the fader elements, such as LEDs, on the Ultimation this is not true.

There are two key elements to this system, the first is the BUS card. The BUS card is the card that is installed one per bay, which allows to connect 8 faders cartridges.  This card is "intelligent", in the sense it's just not an interconnection bus card, because you have to issue the Fader Address to select which fader you want to read or write on the BUS. The Fader Address configures all the necessary electronics on the BUS card, which allows you to select the target fader (1-8) and make sure that on the other end of the BUS you have one fader talking with you and not all! :)

The third element, is the 352 card (control card), that exists on each fader. Each fader is composed by a sandwich style PCB, the 352 and 353 cards. The 352 handles all the CA bus logic and communication. After the fader selection, when you issue a read/write, you are interfacing with the 353 card, which in turn controls all the aspects I mentioned earlier.

I think this gives a pretty good picture of the overall system.

Cheers,

Artur

« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 12:37:54 PM by Artur D'Assumpção »

PelleG

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Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2015, 01:39:30 PM »
Ahh. Ok. I remember.

Sorry for topic-detour but I just want to finalize the Ultimation connection to the CV96 idea.

If I made my next EX08 revision like this:



..with a plug in PCB for LEDs and switches.

I can easily make a CA vaersion of that plug in PCB later.

They share only the LEDS and switches pins I assume?


Cool. Thanks. I'll do that.

Back to topic. Sorry. 8)


Artur D'Assumpção

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Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2015, 04:03:17 PM »
I would say, they use both the same SEND/RETURN lines, all the rest is re-purposed.

Also I don't know how are you doing the CUTs detection/control on the VCA card, but if you have any specific hardware for that (not only software) you can't use that also, since CUTs is handled by the 352 card and translated to 1 bit.


PelleG

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Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2015, 04:10:42 PM »
I can turn that circuit off from my firmware. No problem.

matt

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Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2015, 04:21:35 PM »
Hi Artur,

which faders are you referring to ?

The Ultimation faders for the 5K are 518 (channel) and 538 (VCA group).
There's no 352 or 353 card.
Or are you referring to 4K Ultimation faders ?

Matt

Artur D'Assumpção

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Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2015, 04:50:25 PM »
Hi Matt,

Yes, I am referring to the Ultimation on 4/6/8k.

As I understand, there are 2 motorized fader systems for the 5k. One is the Ultimation and another one (this is at least what the documentation leads to believe)... I don't know if the Ultimation system is the same, or this also is different. For instance, from pictures posted for the 5k motorized faders clearly they are different from the standard Ultimation faders on 4k consoles. I don't know if the interface in the end is exactly the same or not... never worked with these before. This is something that will have to be investigated by whoever owns a 5k console with motorized faders and is willing to open the hood and get the hands dirty! :)

Cheers,

Artur

PelleG

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Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2015, 05:02:49 PM »
And Matt is the one!  :)

I'll try to make those special cards sometime soon. And hopefully the'll match.

If you(Matt) think you can get a NodeJS setup working on Mac I can give you my diagnostic script.
From there you can lab your way to success.

I think most of this info we talked about lately is extracted from the manual.
When I started my research I could assemble all my schematics and layout without seeing a console.

So. Just find a pinout for the CV going in and out and also try to find the logic pins.

If 5K can use the 4K computer then it has to be somewhat the same.
9 CV in and out and some logic stuff per bucket.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 05:46:24 AM by PelleG »

matt

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Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2015, 10:50:55 PM »
Hi Pelle, hi Artur,

sure I am glad to get my hands dirty (and hopefully don't blow too much).

Here's a list of involved cables and an overview of the signals they carry :

Cables used in SSL 5000 Ultimation
----------------------------------------

S505 - Moving Fader Bus --> Moving Fader Control Rack (1 for each fader)
            - Fader
              - Output,
              - Set / AFL / PFL / Backstop / Isolate : Switch
              - Set / AFL / PFL / Trim / Abs / Isolate : Led / Lamp
              - Display Lines (A0-A3)
              - Motor In
           
S508 - Channel Fader Bus --> Moving Fader Control Rack (1 for each 2 faders)
             (Docs say : to PROG/Pan Bus, IMO bus, Subgroup Bus - but this is obviously for non-Ultimation configurations)
            - For each Fader
              - Channel VCA DC
              - Solo Mute
              - AFL / PFL Fets Enable
              - Fader Set Switch / Led
              - Analog Data
            - Status Unlock
            - Master Reset
            - Row Enable
            - Fader Bypass
            - IR address Lines A0 - A5
           
S544 - Cut Send/Return --> CA Computer Rack (for 8 faders)

S14E - Moving Fader Control Rack --> Computer Rack
            (Docs say : from Programmable Pan Rack)
            - Fader 1-8 + Master Fader :
              - Switch
              - Abs LED
              - Trim LED
              - Computer Send
              - Computer Return


Per Bucket you have :
--------------------------

2 x Fader Buscards with 4 faders each
      S505 from : buscard                            ---> Moving Fader Control Rack (1 for each fader)

4 x S508 from : Pan Module Buscard           ---> Moving Fader Control Rack (1 for each 2 faders)

1 x S544 from : Bucket back panel             ---> Computer Rack

1 x S14E from : Moving Fader Control Rack ---> Computer Rack

The Moving Fader Control Rack holds a 109 card for each fader
The faders share the same PCB (only few differences)

Does this shed some light on the configuration ?
I can provide docs and schematics if that helps.

Matt

P.S. btw NodeJS is up and running on my Mac .... and : thanks for hearing me :-)
P.P.S : Total recall is already implemented by MIDI connections from an extra computer (SL590) to the desk.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 10:54:00 PM by matt »

PelleG

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Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2015, 06:00:50 AM »
Hmm. Interesting. So the S14E is there.
What is "moving fader control rack"?
Is that in the console or something at the computer side?

matt

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Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2015, 07:56:03 AM »
The moving fader control rack sits in the console.
For every 16 channels it's a 19" 4HE unit sitting usually in the producer's table or in penthouse above the patchbay.
It holds different cards for channel and VCA group faders.
From there, the S14E is going to the computer rack.

I attached a photo for better imagination :-)

Does the S14E have different signals with the 4K computer ?

PelleG

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Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2015, 07:56:48 AM »
Anyway.
It seems like the "Moving Fader Control Rack" is doing som magic with the switch and led pins.
And you already have that?

Then we need to see a pin description of the S14E for 5K.
I guess the CV lines match up but what's interesting is pin 1 to 30.
I guess since cuts are on the side it can't use the CA structure.

And Artur, one last. What is the CA return pin doing?
Plus. Enable +/- is for the RS serial line to be able to trigger the address latch when running long wires, eh?
Sorry. Always need to sidetrack.. :-[

PelleG

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Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2015, 08:02:10 AM »
...Does the S14E have different signals with the 4K computer ?

I think they match from pin 31 and up since those are the CV lines.
The others are used for switches and LEDs on a VCA console and for digital communication on Ultimation.
My system also use those pins for digital com to my mother faders.

Just to start somewhere you can check pin 31 or 41 on the S14E with a multimeter and see if it ramps when moving the fader.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 08:04:06 AM by PelleG »

matt

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Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2015, 09:05:02 AM »
I am not up and running at the moment since I am reconfiguring the centre section.
So it will take some time until I can measure something.
In addition I am running without computer since a couple of weeks to reduce the amount of components that could cause errors.
I am doing my best to get this done soon.

I attached the S14E pinout - thing is : I don't know if this is also true for Ultimation.

matt

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Re: Automation System for a 5K
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2015, 09:10:14 AM »
It seems like the "Moving Fader Control Rack" is doing som magic with the switch and led pins.
And you already have that?

Yes I do