Automation System for a 5K

[matt]

Hi,

I assembled a couple of documents to show how Ultimation is setup on my 5K console.
Most of it is taken from the cable / connector pinout documentation.
I also attached a part if the schematics for the logic boards that shows, how the signals from the faders are handled.

Does this give more of the necessary information ?

Matt

[PelleG]

Wow.
Nice.
There seem to be a computer bypass jumper.
I just had a quick look though.

[matt]

ya, that's true - it's one central jumper on the back of the console and you can operate the whole thing without the computer.

[Helterbelter]

Nice !

by the way, fyi, the computer send/return circuit is identical to what's in the SL506/508 fader. (At first glance, but I'm pretty certain about it. I'll double check when i get home this afternoon though).

[Artur D'Assumpção]

Hi Matt,

This is very good work! Congratulations! This definitely sheds some light into the entire system.

It's curious the see how SSL was able to hide all the moving fader details behind the standard VCA S14 interface.This doesn't happen with the 4/6/8k ultimation, since SSL decided to move much of the fader control into the digital CA BUS.

All the cards you listed (which only exist on the 5000) seem to translate the standard interface to all the necessary voltages and control of the moving fader, making it like a "black box" input/output approach, from the computer perspective.

From the information you shared, it seems like if you plug this into any VCA interface it should work, except CUT automation which is done on a separate ribbon (S544).

Being the CUT information in a separate ribbon, can reveal that the gain structure of the control voltage might be different, at least the ceiling. While on the 4/6/8k ultimation the CUT is 100% handled by the digital CA bus, the VCA version is handled with a control voltage >= 7.5v. With this, one can see that the VCA console voltages go from 0-7.5-10v, while the Ultimation only goes from 0-5v (no cut control voltage exists).

What I suspect is that 5000 is no different, although it uses a similar VCA console approach the control voltage didn't allowed for automatic CUT control, hence a separate ribbon. To make this clear what I would now check, is what are the following control voltages:

- Fader fully up, fader fully down, fader fully up+cut, fader fully down+cut. I would also check what is the CV voltage for the cut ribbon, is it a simple 5v (enable) - 0v (disable) ?

I am also curious to know if the 5000 Ultimation is purely a motorized fader which controls the VCA amp, or it's like the 4/6/8k ultimation which allows for non-VCA  (motors on) and VCA (motors off). Can you clarify?

I am also curious, since my knowledge of the 5000 is null, what are the function for the other fader buttons? could you elaborate on their function?

Finally, just wanted to mention that although we are looking at the fader automation, I can imagine there are other aspects of the console one wants to control in the computer right? Total Recall? What's up with the pans?


PS: in the future it would rock to have the user+service manuals of the 5000 fully scanned!

Great work!

Cheers,

Artur



 

[matt]

Hi Artur,

This is very good work! Congratulations! This definitely sheds some light into the entire system.

Glad you like it .... I've been learning with this as well since i didn't use the automation yet.

...... seem to translate the standard interface to all the necessary voltages and control of the moving fader, making it like a "black box" input/output approach, from the computer perspective.
.... it seems like if you plug this into any VCA interface it should work.......

That's what I hoped

...... To make this clear what I would now check, is what are the following control voltages:

- Fader fully up, fader fully down, fader fully up+cut, fader fully down+cut. I would also check what is the CV voltage for the cut ribbon, is it a simple 5v (enable) - 0v (disable) ?

ok - this will take some time since I have to re-assemble the parts I pulled off and the ones I want to add ..... but I am motivated since I get feedback here - thx btw.

I am also curious to know if the 5000 Ultimation is purely a motorized fader which controls the VCA amp, or it's like the 4/6/8k ultimation which allows for non-VCA  (motors on) and VCA (motors off). Can you clarify?

To me it looks like it is like that.
I can't see any audio signal passing the fader - at least not for Ultimation.

I am also curious, since my knowledge of the 5000 is null, what are the function for the other fader buttons? could you elaborate on their function?

To give you an overview of what kind of faders are available on a 5k see the attached document which is an excerpt of the 'user manual' ....
The Ultimation faders (SL518 (Channel) and SL538 (VCA group) are not shown, only mentioned on page 70)

Finally, just wanted to mention that although we are looking at the fader automation, I can imagine there are other aspects of the console one wants to control in the computer right? Total Recall? What's up with the pans?

Definitely .... there's a separate Total Recall Computer which is already using MIDI to scan the settings of each switch, the faders and the pots.
My goal is to control a DAW (to a certain extent) from the console ... like 'record arm' 'record safe' and such as well as the transport.
I don't think I'll be using my EQs to control the SSL channel strip plugin though :-) .....

Don't think it's an easy task to control the pans - I am not that much into electronics (though I am working on that).
Helterbelter might be someone who can probably shed some light on that.

PS: in the future it would rock to have the user+service manuals of the 5000 fully scanned!

Oh - it's only about 1 mtr on the shelf (if that's enough) .... and a lot of it is A3 schematics
And I'd like to see that for the 4k/6k/8k as well :-)
We'll see what comes up.

Matt

[Helterbelter]

I think Artur is referring to the programmable filmjoystickpanners. Which i don't have of course, so I don't know the precise details, but from what I understood, is that it's somewhat similar to the SL570 graphic eq system : a controller in the desk, with the audiocards located in an external rack, consisting of lineamps with VCAs (and in case of the SL570 also filters).
So, for each panner 8 audiolines with 8 CVs.

The Sl597 channel panners "only" have TR/IR.

[Helterbelter]

One thing, and this actually pretty important : The logic voltages are different in the 5k when compared to the other series desks :

Logic Hi = -18v
Logic Lo = -24v


So, in case of the cut (which appears at the pannermodule, which also holds the faders VCA), cut is -24v and open is -18v. (although it can be switched the other way by resetting a jumper in the pannermodule : some desks have ON switches, others have CUT switches.

[matt]

I think Artur is referring to the programmable filmjoystickpanners. Which i don't have of course, so I don't know the precise details, but from what I understood, is that it's somewhat similar to the SL570 graphic eq system : a controller in the desk, with the audiocards located in an external rack, consisting of lineamps with VCAs (and in case of the SL570 also filters).
So, for each panner 8 audiolines with 8 CVs.

That's exactly the way they built it.
There's one audio input signal going from the patchbay to the external rack.
8 VCA values come back depending on the position of the joystick.
These are routed to the joystick panner module in the console surface and routed from there to the 7.1 output busses.
The joystick position data themselves leave the console via MIDI (proprietary stream) to the IPI (Intelligent Peripheral Interface) which communicates with the computer (S14E again) and the joystick panner logic cards in the external rack.
So if it was possible to 'emulate' the joystick MIDI data to the IPI it should be possible to also automate the joystick - if the necessary logic cards are available

The SL597 channel panners "only" have TR/IR.

Would there be a way to 'send' the voltages that the pan pot is causing to the SL597 (or SL527) module from an outside ?

[Helterbelter]

Voltages from the pots ? No, these handle audio, except for the 100klin gang which is for the TR.
....Although I don't exactly understand what you mean.....
Or do you mean from the filmpannerjoystick to the 507/527/597 panners ? Also not possible. Unless you want to fit a VCA circuit or a motorpot with a load of additional electronics, but that'd be madness.

[matt]

ok - I understand .... not possible unless a complete change .... motorpots is too much a hassle .... thx

[Helterbelter]

I am also curious to know if the 5000 Ultimation is purely a motorized fader which controls the VCA amp, or it's like the 4/6/8k ultimation which allows for non-VCA  (motors on) and VCA (motors off). Can you clarify?

Are you referring to whether the motors are controlled, and that DC taken from the taper is used to directly control the VCA ? I don't think this is the case. If you take a look at the schematic Matt posted in the same post as the diagram, you see that the CV from the fader comes in at 17a, and that later on the computersend and return is connected at 3a and 2b.

By the way, now I also see the bypass and CA high connection..... Just below the Fader In point.
And, as said, it's -18v high, and -24v lo.

I am also curious, since my knowledge of the 5000 is null, what are the function for the other fader buttons? could you elaborate on their function?

usually, it's :
AFL
PFL
Set (that's for the routing, and for assigning the DCgroups)
status

not sure this is also the case with the faders from Matt, but I'm sure he'll rectify this within minutes

[matt]

ok ... it took 30 minutes until I had a chance to read my mail again :-)

That's right .... and, in addition, as you can see in my pic post of the faders (http://www.musik-scheune.de/pub/sslmixed/SL518_Top_lowres.jpg) there are 3 LEDs for automation.

On the VCA group faders there is also a button to solo isolate the whole assigned group.

Btw - using the set switch you can also solo isolate each single fader .... but it must not be in a VCA group to be solo isolated on itself.

[matt]

I'd like to get back on this one :

I once had the idea to use a behringer cybermix for adding faderautomation on my 5k from the DAW. But this needs quite a bit of finetuning. I once managed to drive the cybermix through midi from Cubase, but there's more stuff needed to get it all up and running.....  Obviously, an additional circuit using an opamp is needed to convert the CV values of the CM to the values needed for the 5k, but this is not a real problem.....

With what you know so far about the Ultimation .... what's the difference in CV that is needed from the CM to the Ultimation send / return ?

Maybe a CM is an easy (and pretty cheap as well) way to (volume-)automate at least 32 channels ......

[Artur D'Assumpção]

Hi,

I think at this moment it would be important to know exactly what is the voltage ranges for the VCA control voltages.

To be honest, this system is much more similar with the 4/6/8k VCA consoles than with the Ultimation, despite having motorized faders.

Cheers,

Artur

PS: by the way, if necessary we have all the service manuals scanned for the 4000 consoles.