SSlmixed.com Forum
XK-System (community project) => Software Development => Topic started by: Artur D'Assumpção on October 28, 2013, 10:05:16 AM
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Hi guys,
Do you guys know if SSL as ever released the SSL Computer development documentation or even source code to the community (even if privately)? If not, do you think this is something they will be willing to do given the right motivation?
I am looking for this information because I am planning to develop a software to backup and manage projects on the oldie floppy disks. This software would enable you to read/write and manage the floppy data on a modern computer. If I had access to the implementation details I might also be able to to other fancy stuff, like editing the project data.
Of course this would be something that would be freely available to the SSLMixed community.
Cheers,
Artur
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sounds interesting! sorry I don't have any info on the software source code
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I don't need the source code. But I would need to know the filesystem structure for the floppy format and files. If i knew that i could easily make a userspace driver to mount it on OS X or Linux and backup projects, view them and edit them. This would be really awesome.
Does anyone one here have an inside contact with SSL? Would this be something they would be willing to provide?
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I don't need the source code. But I would need to know the filesystem structure for the floppy format and files. If i knew that i could easily make a userspace driver to mount it on OS X or Linux and backup projects, view them and edit them. This would be really awesome.
Does anyone one here have an inside contact with SSL? Would this be something they would be willing to provide?
You need to speak to Jim, he knows the guy who programmed the system software from the ground up.
Doubt SSL will be any help at this stage.
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I'll try to get Jim in this thread! :D
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Hi all. I wasn't involved with any software at all whilst at SSL (1980-87) but I do know that Paul Bamborough was the main person involved with developing the infamous SSL computer mix system.
I have memories of him working very late into the night, upstairs in their new building in Stonesfield in the early 80's. He was an eccentric but friendly character and had a new Porsche in the car park! I think Paul left when SSL merged with another company and then they were taken over by Charlton Communications. I think Paul now works with Dreamworks and when he left SSL, he got paid a royalty (apparently 1%) for each SSL computer system sold after that but I may be wrong.
Bear in mind that all this was done in the days when an SE Classic Mac was considered to be a ground breaking computer although all I saw of Paul's work was him working on an old PC type computer (presumably with Dos or whatever it was called!). Colin Sanders always liked Macs but they couldn't do the mix software task at the time.
After Paul left, Phil Cork took over software design and he eventually left to join up with Sean Fernback at Motionworks providing synchroniser based bolt on products for the SSL computer system.
Jim Smith was involved mostly with computer hardware and designed the 11u rack, 2u floppy drive unit, Real Time, Events and 3u synchroniser controllers. Graham Hinton was also a design engineer (683 programmable equaliser for instance) and may have access to the SSL computer coding system. He now has his own company, Hinton Instruments.
I have not been in contact with any of these people for many years but, if you type their names into search engines, maybe something will turn up. I doubt whether SSL would be interested in providing information as they seem to think that anything given out relating to their older consoles would affect their current sales!
Dramastic provided hope earlier this year by potentially offering a new alternative computer system but that seems to have gone quiet now? Maybe they would be willing to work with interested parties to get something sorted as the SSL computer system, as we all know it, is some 30 years old.
At this rate, and without a modern day computer system to match, SSL consoles may just be used for tracking purposes and not with the ground breaking mix software which made them famous very quickly within a few years resulting in 1 console every 6 weeks in 1980 rising to 13 each month by December 1983!
Hope this helps a bit and regards from
Jim Lassen (www.profcon.co.uk). Also on FACEBOOK (http://www.facebook.com/pages/ProfCon-wwwprofconcouk-Professional-Connections-Jim-Lassen/371183312969924?ref=hl/)
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Hi Jim,
Thanks so much for the useful info. As always your posts are always filled with comprehensive background that we enjoy so much. ;)
I think in this situation it would be in the interest of SSL to provide this info, since it does not reveal any critical technology details of their current offer and it would help greatly their clients and users to maintain and keep these beautiful consoles working, keeping alive the SSL legacy. Also the cost of this would be none, since giving back the info to the community would be the same as giving the service manuals in past.
I can try to reach some of the names you gave me, but I can imagine that they would be bound to some kind of NDA and can't reveal that info. Anyways I will search, contact these people soon and try my luck.
I can also try the painful way... which is to try to reverse engineer the format. But this will take much more time.
By the way, since i don't have currently access to an SSL in the couple months, can anyone provide me with two floppy images taken out with the "dd" command line app, present in OS X and Linux OSs? That would be a good starting point:
- Formatted floppy with no projects
- Formatted floppy with projects
Just out of curiosity, and thinking more ahead, have you guys ever thought of a floppy replacement, such as this:
http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/index.html#SDCARDFloppyemulator
It seems interesting and worth the try?! :D
Cheers,
Artur
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The geek in my just got very excited! I still got most of my parted out G+ mix-computer sitting here. Floppydrives sold, no CPU and memory. I wonder if it's ever gonna be in action again?
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We should, as a community write a letter/mail to SSL to ask them to donate us the detailed documentation so we could support these desks in the future, within the community.
For now, my personal goal is to make this software manager for the SSL disks. But the crucial part is to be able to read the filesystem first. This can be accomplished in 3 ways:
1- I have access to the Filesystem specification and I will easily make a kernel or userspace driver to mount it.
2- I pull my hair and spend months trying to reverse engineer it
3- By a lucky shot SSL was smart and implemented an already sudo-standard filesystem of the time, which I doubt...
Either way, I would need those raw copies I mentioned on the previous post. If any one of you gentlemen could provide me that would be awesome! :)
Cheers,
Artur
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You bring up something really important, Artur!
We are doing great work her to keep up SSL's heritage. Just like somebody who drives a classic Mercedes.
Daimler-Benz is more clever though. They know that the value of the brand has SO MUCH to do with that heritage. Thats why there is a Mercedes-Benz Classic Car Center.
Anyway, my point is that we should build a relationship with SSL. They are not supporting our consoles any longer - thats fine with me. But they can only gain from giving us access to documentation, etc.
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Yaps, that's what I'm talking about.
Anyway, although this letter could be written and backed up by the community I think that someone with a current or previous relationship with SSL (a known and friendly face) should handle this contact, like a community ambassador.
Artur
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The main E/G series computer was built around an off the shelf NM4 mini computer made by Computer Automation, with Total Recall handled by a Z80 based computer built be Research Machines.
I have a long term ambition to recreate the E/G series computer (including TR) on an FPGA; technically fairly straightforward (its late 1970's technology after-all), the challenge is getting information on the NM4 CPU card, SSL used several models throughout the history of the E and G series starting with the LSI-4/30 and finally the LSI-4/100.
Does anyone with access to the computer service manual know if SSL included the schematic of the CPU card? This would be very useful.
The computer automation museum website has a lot of information on earlier CA mini computers and some NM4 stuff, including the file system document which may be of use here. This dates from 1979 so almost certainly is how the earlier E series disks where formatted.
http://computer-automation-museum.org/ca/pdf/computer-automation/90-93440-00B0--NM4-Standard-Disk-File-Format/90-93440-00B0--NM4-Standard-Disk-File-Format.pdf
Hope this helps.
Steve.
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Does anyone with access to the computer service manual know if SSL included the schematic of the CPU card? This would be very useful.
I'll check the computer service manual for that later today. Thanks for the info! Can't wait to see how we can develop these ideas further.
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The main E/G series computer was built around an off the shelf NM4 mini computer made by Computer Automation, with Total Recall handled by a Z80 based computer built be Research Machines.
I have a long term ambition to recreate the E/G series computer (including TR) on an FPGA; technically fairly straightforward (its late 1970's technology after-all), the challenge is getting information on the NM4 CPU card, SSL used several models throughout the history of the E and G series starting with the LSI-4/30 and finally the LSI-4/100.
Does anyone with access to the computer service manual know if SSL included the schematic of the CPU card? This would be very useful.
The computer automation museum website has a lot of information on earlier CA mini computers and some NM4 stuff, including the file system document which may be of use here. This dates from 1979 so almost certainly is how the earlier E series disks where formatted.
http://computer-automation-museum.org/ca/pdf/computer-automation/90-93440-00B0--NM4-Standard-Disk-File-Format/90-93440-00B0--NM4-Standard-Disk-File-Format.pdf
Hope this helps.
Steve.
Hi Steve,
Thanks so much for this information, this can be very very useful for my little project. I will start looking into the PDF today.
I think there's lots of information we could need to fully support and customize these consoles in the future. This will lead me to a new thread that I will post during the day that will be of interest to all community.
PS: someone send me those image files for the floppies please!
Cheers,
Artur
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Is there a reason one has to recreate what a 30 year old computer did? Wouldn't it be much more forward to think how can we integrate these babies into the new more modern work flow. Shouldn't we be looking at how to integrate the recall into a Daw session or into just a modern program and how the automation of the VCA or Ultimation faders can be controlled from any standard DAW. We all know that the automation of the SSL can easily be run by any current smartphone. It is creating the hardware to convert the data to a useable format that is the hang up although there seems to be progress on that front by Pelle and Dramastic.
Thoughts?
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One thing is safe to say - this forum here is the best place to bring the knowledge together. I quickly spoke to Artur today - he's on to a good thing.
Everything was so much easier with a little bit of help from SSL though.
Is there a reason one has to recreate what a 30 year old computer did? Wouldn't it be much more forward to think how can we integrate these babies into the new more modern work flow. Shouldn't we be looking at how to integrate the recall into a Daw session or into just a modern program and how the automation of the VCA or Ultimation faders can be controlled from any standard DAW. We all know that the automation of the SSL can easily be run by any current smartphone. It is creating the hardware to convert the data to a useable format that is the hang up although there seems to be progress on that front by Pelle and Dramastic.
Thoughts?
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Hi agree totally with you. I think there are lots of reasons that backup the development of a modern alternative as complete to modern days as the old SSL computer was back in the day... and please don't let my small project tell you the opposite. I'm just trying to do a small piece of software to help users keep their projects backed up without having to rely on those floppies, which is a totally different best to deal when comparing to replacing the entire computer. We have already some projects that are cooking to do this for some years now and they haven't seen yet the light of day as a commercial alternative, and that should give a pretty idea how big and complicated the task is, even with modern tools (specially for a 1 man job).
The best and less painful way to approach this "ginormous" challenge should come in the form of a community effort. I have 15 years of active experience on the opensource community supporting several projects and I always experienced that community contributions help projects see the light of day and survive time. I have to be honest here, SSL doesn't give any more support and these desks are getting old. Up until now the community as make an awesome job compiling an insane database of info and in actively helping SSL users maintaining their consoles. Trusting that this commitment will grow and the numbers of talented contributors too, I believe any solution for the SSL computer should come directly from the community and not from a commercial alternative, since as I see it, in the latter approach we'll be leaving one "closed proprietary technology" to another and that will just postpone the problem until the manufacturer bankrupts, drops the product and give support no more. In conclusion, you will be left with another brick for your collection. This leads me to another issue, for the community to be able to do this we need more information about the SSL computer and its link with the console, so we can understand it fully and design a complete alternative and, hopefully, much more powerful. It's not an easy task to get this, and reverse engineering takes many many man-hours, as Pelle testified it in person. The best would be to have access to development documentation that would explain in detail the technology. With this info in our hands, I know we have talented electronic and software engineers that could make this possible. This is a topic that I will address soon in it's own thread.
A community solution (doesn't mean free) will endure time and give us the freedom to evolve the solution to accommodate our needs. Also will be much cheaper to accomplish, both on a financial and personal-life cost. This wouldn't be a 1-2-3 man job, but a job of the many in the community.
I leave you with these thoughts, comments are welcome! :D
Cheers,
Artur
Is there a reason one has to recreate what a 30 year old computer did? Wouldn't it be much more forward to think how can we integrate these babies into the new more modern work flow. Shouldn't we be looking at how to integrate the recall into a Daw session or into just a modern program and how the automation of the VCA or Ultimation faders can be controlled from any standard DAW. We all know that the automation of the SSL can easily be run by any current smartphone. It is creating the hardware to convert the data to a useable format that is the hang up although there seems to be progress on that front by Pelle and Dramastic.
Thoughts?
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Is there a reason one has to recreate what a 30 year old computer did?
Thoughts?
My reason is for preservation, even if this is just getting as much information as possible in one place (as is the goal here), the Studio Computer deserves its place in history and it could all to easily slip away. For me it would be fun to rebuild the computer from scratch and get it running the original software, clearly this would bring nothing new to the party - I abandoned this idea several years ago due to lack of information but after accidentally finding this forum it got me thinking again.
It would be great to get get hold of any documentation from SSL, I would love to trawl trough the source code..
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Is there a reason one has to recreate what a 30 year old computer did?
Thoughts?
My reason is for preservation, even if this is just getting as much information as possible in one place (as is the goal here), the Studio Computer deserves its place in history and it could all to easily slip away. For me it would be fun to rebuild the computer from scratch and get it running the original software, clearly this would bring nothing new to the party - I abandoned this idea several years ago due to lack of information but after accidentally finding this forum it got me thinking again.
It would be great to get get hold of any documentation from SSL, I would love to trawl trough the source code..
Exciting! Not sure if it helps, but I have a complete computer service manual. Haven't gotten around scanning it, as it's a MONSTER!!
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That would be a great adition to our documentation database.
Anyway what we will need is the development documentation that SSL might have it their archives. I will address this issue in a new thread I will write soon (next couple of days).
I also have a big proposition to make to the community that I think it will be important to take the SSL Mixed to the next level. News soon.
Cheers,
Artur
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Exciting! Not sure if it helps, but I have a complete computer service manual. Haven't gotten around scanning it, as it's a MONSTER!!
It would help loads.. :)
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I have scanned computer service manual ( as well Ultimation) and compiled nice pdf's out of them.
The files are currently under checking for any misstakes, typos and so and when we find they are good Mattia will publish them. There's will be again tiny fee per file to support the site.
-Paavo
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Guys please go to the next thread which is the follow up of this subject:
http://forum.sslmixed.com/index.php?topic=426.msg2379#new
Cheers,
Artur
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Nice work Paavo!
Lets us know when you have it completed. Would love to have my hand on that.
Those that documentation give out information about the logic behavior for the computer <-> console control, automation and total recall?
Cheers,
Artur
I have scanned computer service manual ( as well Ultimation) and compiled nice pdf's out of them.
The files are currently under checking for any misstakes, typos and so and when we find they are good Mattia will publish them. There's will be again tiny fee per file to support the site.
-Paavo
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manuals will be uploaded later on today, early tomorrow morning.
again please do not re-distribute them...
on regards to the other thread
http://forum.sslmixed.com/index.php?topic=426.0
I second this as it seems a lot of people are keen on resurrecting the old system but I would not get in touch or ask anything to SSL directly.
they don't want / can be involved in this.
I have tried to collaborate with them on the forum at various levels in the past and all I got was a dead end.
I guess it's not viable for them to be involved in things like this.
one thing they did was to list all the SSL studios on the planet..right after I spoke on the phone to the marketing manager about it...
interesting they had the same idea I had when I created the www.SSLMIXED.com database ....EXACTLY a couple of weeks after me...odd...
so my 2 cents: leave them alone.
flip side of the coin: if there is anybody out there that worked on the code or anything that had to do with the computer and is willing to help I think we should get in touch with him and see if we can take it further.
Mattia.
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Mattia,
You have lots of experience with the SSL electronics. Do you think it would be doable to reverse the system? How complicated would be to read/write signals to and from the console? I think after we got thing sorted out and an electronic board ready developing the software would be the smoothest part. I already have bunch of design ideas for this that I can share.
Artur
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Hi Artur,
Regarding your thread, maybe I can help you.
I'm working as field technical engineer on 4000, during 80-85 …
It’s very long time, but I can remember some issues, and solutions with the total recall and automation.
I'll look tonight if I can find the 4000 service manuals
Pascal
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Hi Pascal,
Thank you so much for you support. I believe if we can gather enough information we will be able to do it and build a system we can trust for the future! ;)
Keep in touch!
Cheers,
Artur
Hi Artur,
Regarding your thread, maybe I can help you.
I'm working as field technical engineer on 4000, during 80-85 …
It’s very long time, but I can remember some issues, and solutions with the total recall and automation.
I'll look tonight if I can find the 4000 service manuals
Pascal
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Hi Pascal,
Thank you so much for you support. I believe if we can gather enough information we will be able to do it and build a system we can trust for the future! ;)
Keep in touch!
Cheers,
Artur
Hi Artur,
Regarding your thread, maybe I can help you.
I'm working as field technical engineer on 4000, during 80-85 …
It’s very long time, but I can remember some issues, and solutions with the total recall and automation.
I'll look tonight if I can find the 4000 service manuals
Pascal
all manuals (including computer service manual) in the documents thread.. ;)
http://forum.sslmixed.com/index.php?topic=428.0
Mattia.
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Mattia,
You have lots of experience with the SSL electronics. Do you think it would be doable to reverse the system? How complicated would be to read/write signals to and from the console? I think after we got thing sorted out and an electronic board ready developing the software would be the smoothest part. I already have bunch of design ideas for this that I can share.
Artur
the console it's fairly straight forward and really,extremely well designed.
Computer it's sort of black magic for me...
Mattia.
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just found this NM4 information:
http://www.thekonnektor.com/ssl/NM4_General_Information.pdf (http://www.thekonnektor.com/ssl/NM4_General_Information.pdf)
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Thanks Werner!!
This information is very interesting where did you find it?! ;)
Perfect would be to talk with the Computer Automation Museum guy and convince him to scan the development manual for the NM4 cpu's we need. That would give a much deeper insight on the instruction set and machine state information.
Cheers,
Artur
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Hi All,
Regarding the manual "SL 691 computer service manual", pages 2-2 and 2-18, we have a lot informations about "old" architecture. ( everyone interested should buy the manual ;D )
From NM4 information, thanks Konnektor, the NM4 is a 16 bit architecture. I think that we msut find trought ecos supported hardware, a 16 bit processor ...in oder to interface all existing boards.
Now, what we do with time code reader / generator ?
We can find few chips on the market (I0055 from Otari, ICS200), but I'm not sure this is more efficient than FPGA
Cheers,
Pascal
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From NM4 information, thanks Konnektor, the NM4 is a 16 bit architecture. I think that we msut find trought ecos supported hardware, a 16 bit processor ...in oder to interface all existing boards.
When you say "in order to interface all existing boards", are you referring to the different I/O-cards of the old SSL computer or to the actual mixing consoles?
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Hi guys,
I'll post soon my architecture suggestion and also base hardware. I've been investigating a solution and I've found the perfect one. By the way...we won't need ecOS, standard Linux distro for embedded systems will suffice. I'll explain better in a different post.
Remember, the idea here is not to use ANY of the old hardware. We will have 100% new hardware without limitations. We're adding a new "brain" to the console, so forget all previous concepts. With the solution I have been investigating the hardware we'll need to design will be minimum and restricted only to I/O interfacing with the console.
Check my posts later in the night.
Cheers,
Artur
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Can't wait to hear your idea.
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When you say "in order to interface all existing boards", are you referring to the different I/O-cards of the old SSL computer or to the actual mixing consoles?
Hi,
To the actual mixing console, to preserve the console.
At the same time, I think we should be interested in the concept that allowed to exchange a audio tape and a data disk between different studios.
I looked at the file format, this is a big job to retrieve existing data.
Is this really necessary? How will mix reworked on the new system?
Artur,
I think the first task of the team must prepare a detailed specification.
This will guide the choice of hardware, software, and define the functionality of the system...
Have a nice evening
Pascal
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Thanks Werner!!
This information is very interesting where did you find it?! ;)
Perfect would be to talk with the Computer Automation Museum guy and convince him to scan the development manual for the NM4 cpu's we need. That would give a much deeper insight on the instruction set and machine state information.
Cheers,
Artur
I can ask him if you like?
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Thanks Werner!!
This information is very interesting where did you find it?! ;)
Perfect would be to talk with the Computer Automation Museum guy and convince him to scan the development manual for the NM4 cpu's we need. That would give a much deeper insight on the instruction set and machine state information.
Cheers,
Artur
I can ask him if you like?
That would be perfect if you could! We might need that info when it comes to that! ;)
THanks!
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Hi guys,
I continue investigations to understand the workings of the "Ultimation".
Is someone could give me a copy of the eeprom (IC40) of 82E356 ?
Thanks,
Cheers,
Pascal
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Hi Pascal,
The ultimation will be something that we should include on our project.
It's a totally different system than the VCA automation, and I guess it will take even more effort from us, since we'll have to understand how we can control the fader electronics and motors and develop the necessary cards to connect them to our computer.
Any developments?
Cheers,
Artur
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Just out of curiosity, and thinking more ahead, have you guys ever thought of a floppy replacement, such as this:
http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/index.html#SDCARDFloppyemulator
..... to whom it may concern : here's the pricing :
http://www.lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=120
There also seems to be a 1:1 replacement option (at least for the 3,5" version) :
http://www.peripheral-vision.com/userfiles/pdf/cf2scsi/teac-scsi-floppy-replacement.pdf
Matt
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Thanks Matt,
It's always good to have these alternative if someone would like to try them out. The SSL Computer is a very picky piece of hardware and the Floppy drive that came with it it's not a standard one, so that's something someone would have to tryout because it's not guaranteed to work. But if it worked it would be definitely a great alternative! :D
In the meanwhile we have decided to focus our full attention on developing a totally new and modern computer. This will guarantee SSL owner for the future, with a piece of hardware/software that's easier maintainable/upgradable and 100% designed for modern workflows.
I will have more news soon on this! :D We've been making some developments on the background. When the project goes on full gas all help from the community will be helpful.
Cheers,
Artur
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Hi Artur,
thanks for getting back on this.
I am aware of the fact that we are focussing on a complete replacement of the old computer.
But since I don't know how long it will take to have something that works, I thought it might make sense for someone who's looking for an alternative to his floppy drives.
And, of course, to complete the docs :-)
I also think it should be pretty straightforward to replace the floppy drives by anything that can talk SCSI (ZIP, HDD, whatever) - as long as the PROGRAM device has SCSI ID 1 and the REEL device has SCSI ID 2.
Again, I can only talk about the 3,5" drives - but 5,25" drives are much the same, just a different connector and different size of the floppies. Don't know about the 8" drives though. I once had one but sold it - guess it was SCSI or maybe SASI.
Due to Marc's problems with his drives, I opened up my drive unit just to see what's actually in there.
I also took some pics for documentation and was about to post a little more info on that maybe in the doku thread.
But if that's not needed (or wanted) I will refrain from that.
Cheers,
Matt
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Hi Matt,
Please don't get me wrong, I didn't want to be misunderstood. Since you're a new member I just wanted to update you of what we are planing and doing regarding the SSL Computer. The last thing I wanted was to imply or dissuade you from contributing useful information and the results of your efforts regarding any topic whatsoever.
Of course all contributions no matter what are very important and very welcome. We are a community that incentive user participation and contribution, which without it the community wouldn't be possible.
Regarding your floppy efforts, please post all your findings, this is important to help everyone understand how it works, how can they troubleshoot it and what are the alternatives out there.
Welcome to the forum! ;)
Cheers,
Artur
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Great stuff - please post it!
The 8" drive was before SASI and SCSI, not sure what protocol.
I also think it should be pretty straightforward to replace the floppy drives by anything that can talk SCSI (ZIP, HDD, whatever) - as long as the PROGRAM device has SCSI ID 1 and the REEL device has SCSI ID 2.
Again, I can only talk about the 3,5" drives - but 5,25" drives are much the same, just a different connector and different size of the floppies. Don't know about the 8" drives though. I once had one but sold it - guess it was SCSI or maybe SASI.
Due to Marc's problems with his drives, I opened up my drive unit just to see what's actually in there.
I also took some pics for documentation and was about to post a little more info on that maybe in the doku thread.
But if that's not needed (or wanted) I will refrain from that.
Cheers,
Matt
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As far as I can tell, the 8” type is Shugard SA850, so this would maybe emulate:
http://www.datexdsm.com/emulator/docs/DTX200en.html?gclid=CL-ghoHNh5oCFQ2T3wodEmWzGA
The one problem that springs to mind is the 8” needs a IBM pre-formatted SS SD blank disc, so this format would have to be placed onto the SD card.
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http://youtu.be/yph8BRoa-As (http://youtu.be/yph8BRoa-As)
This seems really good. With price of the old drives sky rocketing if this works would be perfect. Also the hassle of managing floppies and their durability would be much much lessened.
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I also think it should be pretty straightforward to replace the floppy drives by anything that can talk SCSI (ZIP, HDD, whatever) - as long as the PROGRAM device has SCSI ID 1 and the REEL device has SCSI ID 2.
Again, I can only talk about the 3,5" drives - but 5,25" drives are much the same, just a different connector and different size of the floppies. Don't know about the 8" drives though. I once had one but sold it - guess it was SCSI or maybe SASI.
As far as I’m aware, the TEAC 3.5” drive SCSI is a modified device, so it could sit alongside the 20meg Bernoulli via the same SASI interface.
TEAC, sold a 3.5” with a mass of jumpers, and these could be configured for SSL and AKAI samplers, at some point these were replaced with SMD jumper like resistors
SASI is really SCSI-1?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCSI
BTW: I think this is all really exciting stuff.
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something like this:
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f23/sin-tech/Korg-FD_zps49058604.jpg) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/sin-tech/media/Korg-FD_zps49058604.jpg.html)
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This document describes the 8" floppy system, I confirmed this while disassembling the boot sector.
http://www.computer-automation-museum.org/ca/pdf/computer-automation/91-53566-00A3--Floppy-Disk_Subsystem_Users_Manual/91-53566-00A3--Floppy-Disk_Subsystem_Users_Manual.pdf
It would be great if we could somehow archive the 8" program disk images?
Steve.
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Regarding the TEAC 3.5" floppy with the Jumpers:
Been told that even once the jumpers are set, the drive won't work, until the firmware is flashed.
Apparently, DeskDoctor flashed this firmware onto the off the shelf spare.
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Ok - this is what can be found inside the G+ Disk Drives Unit :
This is a view inside :
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l196/infoservie24matt/SSL%20GPlus%20Computer%20Disk%20Drives/Inside_GPlus_Disk_Drives_zpsea139ebb.jpg)
Notice the 2 extra boards in the box ?
These are what I'd call SCSI <-> Floppy mapping controllers
Look at this a little closer :
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l196/infoservie24matt/SSL%20GPlus%20Computer%20Disk%20Drives/TEAC_FC-1_zpse5dcb934.jpg)
On these boards, the SCSI ID is set :
For SCSI ID 1 :
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l196/infoservie24matt/SSL%20GPlus%20Computer%20Disk%20Drives/SCSI_ID_1_zps34190c31.jpg)
For SCSI ID 2 :
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l196/infoservie24matt/SSL%20GPlus%20Computer%20Disk%20Drives/SCSI_ID_2_zpsc771bd26.jpg)
Here is some documentation of this :
http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/teac/FC-1/HW_HS_1100.PDF
Btw. - the jumper settings on my drive are the factory preset.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l196/infoservie24matt/SSL%20GPlus%20Computer%20Disk%20Drives/TEAC_jumpers_zps6f7599dd.jpg)
The back says SCSI (sintech - according to your Wiki link SASI is really SCSI-I - didn't know that, thx):
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l196/infoservie24matt/SSL%20GPlus%20Computer%20Disk%20Drives/Inside_GPlus_Disk_Drives_Back_zpscb6494ee.jpg)
I know these SCSI <-> something controllers when I was playing around with UNIX boxes back in the 90s.
Actually, I still have some for MFM and RLL drives, even for tape drives (don't remember the interface name from memory).
According to all this, I am tempted to think, that a 'standard' floppy could be used instead of the TEAC one (but would have to prove that),
What should be possible is to attach about any kind of SCSI device there when 'just' leaving out the mapping controller
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According to all this, I am tempted to think, that a 'standard' floppy could be used instead of the TEAC one (but would have to prove that),
What should be possible is to attach about any kind of SCSI device there when 'just' leaving out the mapping controller
This link gives some info regarding why it's not possible, to plug any kind of SCSI device into the current interface:
http://www.microanalytic.com/products/ssl/01_610.html
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Well if this is a standard SCSI-I interface shouldn't any standard SCSI-I compatible device (in this case floppy) work?
The SCSI controller serves as an abstraction layer between the device and the OS, and the OS should be able to work with it without any specific drivers, only the controller one. When the SCSI-I (II and III) BUS was widely used on servers, I recall that I only had to be worried with the controller drivers. If the drivers we properly developed and had the support, any SCSI drive would work and the OS would interface with it seamlessly.
One could try and buy and old SCSI floppy drive (non SSL) on ebay and try to switch it out and see what happens?
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This link gives some info regarding why it's not possible, to plug any kind of SCSI device into the current interface:
http://www.microanalytic.com/products/ssl/01_610.html
Ok - I am afraid, the keyword here is 'Bernoulli commands' ...... and such, sintech is right.
This could well be SCSI on the hardware side but the commands used by the SSL computer are not standard SCSI but Bernoulli - which are not known to the usual SCSI device.
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I see what you mean...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli_Box
Maybe the Floppy drives inner-controller needed some type of firmware modifications to be compatible with commands issued via SCSI that were needed by the Bernoulli drive? Some type of SCSI extension that could exist at the time...
The only way to try this theory is to try a standard SCSI floppy drive and see how it goes.
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EDIT: At the same time it's really a weird behavior because the Bernoulli drives worked over SCSI, so you shouldn't need to have to modify the other drives to be compatible. Maybe this was a limitation of the OS itself in such a way it was easiest to modify the drive's firmware than the OS?
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One question. The systems that had the Bernoulli drives, had 2 drives, or the Bernoulli was just for the Reel disk?
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My system is standard G series.
All systems boot from 8" via the standard CA floppy card.
This new 4100/A has a built in SASI interface that talks to the two
20 meg carts.
Everything is in pairs for backup and transportability
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EDIT: At the same time it's really a weird behavior because the Bernoulli drives worked over SCSI, so you shouldn't need to have to modify the other drives to be compatible. Maybe this was a limitation of the OS itself in such a way it was easiest to modify the drive's firmware than the OS?
ya - that's something I don't get at the moment.
The 'Bernoulli effect' (as far as I understood it) was more a hardware thing - different kind of handling of the platter(s) in a removable cartridge.
Here's a little more technical background.
http://www.techopedia.com/definition/2155/bernoulli-disk-drive
Maybe I can try a couple of things over the weekend ...... will keep you posted.
Matt
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Hi Matt,
Please don't get me wrong, I didn't want to be misunderstood. Since you're a new member I just wanted to update you of what we are planing and doing regarding the SSL Computer. The last thing I wanted was to imply or dissuade you from contributing useful information and the results of your efforts regarding any topic whatsoever.
Of course all contributions no matter what are very important and very welcome. We are a community that incentive user participation and contribution, which without it the community wouldn't be possible.
Regarding your floppy efforts, please post all your findings, this is important to help everyone understand how it works, how can they troubleshoot it and what are the alternatives out there.
Welcome to the forum! ;)
Cheers,
Artur
Hi Artur,
just saw this post .... was probably too busy reading all the interesting topics here - you guys got me into the fanatics again. My desk is sitting there, not in use for about a year or so after relocating the power supply and the computer into another room to get place for re-modelling the house.
No sweat, everything fine.
I am thinking about a new computer for years as well, but since I am not an electronic guy (more software related), this always was my missing link.
To me, this forum is a really great thing since it connects people of the same interest.
And I was looking for that for a while already.
And although I don't own one of 'THE Rock'n'Roll consoles' but a 5K, I hope I can contribute to a certain extent.
I really do have the feeling here, that we are able to come up with something every one of us was thinking about the one or the other day :-)
Thanks
Matt
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Hi Matt,
With the help from guys like you that are very knowledge of this console I'm sure that we'll be able to get something working soon.
We've been digging deep into some details and we already have an architecture design for the new computer that's really getting somewhere! :D
We'll be updating with news very soon! Also I am currently prepping a Wiki for this forum so we can structure, organize and document our findings and endeavors! A place where the information is neatly organized! :) I'll post its address here soon.
There's something I'd like to emphasize regarding this project and it is really what makes me move. This is a project that it is from the community and to the community.Everyone is encouraged to participate and have a little bit of "him" on the final result. It will always belong to the SSLMixed members assuring that all the hard work put behind it is accessible us. This will assure that we can keep evolving and supporting the solution for the future and keep the SSL legacy alive! :D
We count with your help!
Cheers,
Artur
Cheers,
Artur