SSlmixed.com Forum
XK-System (community project) => Research => Topic started by: Showcase on January 31, 2013, 08:15:10 PM
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I`ve always used 3.52, are there significant fixes in the later software updates? And if so, anyone willing to send a copy for a fee! :)
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Im bumping my own thread here cause I´ve always had some minor issues that might have been fixed in a later software update!
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Im bumping my own thread here cause I´ve always had some minor issues that might have been fixed in a later software update!
Hi,
our computer doesn't work at the moment but the diskette says "SSL Program Disk V G4.01" is that helpful to you?
I could send it,
Can I just copy the files directly with a modern computer and sending it over the web?
I never used this so I don't know if the 3.5 floppy disk is formatted in the same way as a normal PC 3.5 floppy disk.
let me know something
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You can.
Use a linux live CD with a computer with a floppy drive.
Then use the command "dd" to make a raw image of the floppy disk to a file. The one the other side you can also use "dd" to write the raw image back to the floppy.
dd if=/dev/fd0 of= floppy.img count=1 bs=1440k
dd if=floppy.img of= /dev/fd0 count=1 bs=1440k
You also have "dd" on OS X.
For windows there's also an app called RawWrite that can achieve the same thing.
Hope this helps!
Cheers,
Artur
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Im bumping my own thread here cause I´ve always had some minor issues that might have been fixed in a later software update!
Hi,
our computer doesn't work at the moment but the diskette says "SSL Program Disk V G4.01" is that helpful to you?
I could send it,
Can I just copy the files directly with a modern computer and sending it over the web?
I never used this so I don't know if the 3.5 floppy disk is formatted in the same way as a normal PC 3.5 floppy disk.
let me know something
Hi,
If you manage to create a raw image of your program disk could you email it to me? I'm trying to reverse engineer / dis-assemble this software.
Cheers,
Steve
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Hi Artur,
thank you so much, I will try to do the raw image. I dont know if Im able to do that since Im not experienced at all in software or computer.
I dont have linux.
I will try to do that on a Windows PC with RawWrite
Steve,
I Im able to do that I will send you over email.
send me your email over to my PM inbox
Thanks
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Hi guys,
I continue investigations to understand the workings of the "Ultimation".
Is someone could give me a copy of the eeprom (IC40) of 82E356 ?
Thanks,
Cheers,
Pascal
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Im bumping my own thread here cause I´ve always had some minor issues that might have been fixed in a later software update!
Hi,
our computer doesn't work at the moment but the diskette says "SSL Program Disk V G4.01" is that helpful to you?
I could send it,
Can I just copy the files directly with a modern computer and sending it over the web?
I never used this so I don't know if the 3.5 floppy disk is formatted in the same way as a normal PC 3.5 floppy disk.
let me know something
Hi,
If you manage to create a raw image of your program disk could you email it to me? I'm trying to reverse engineer / dis-assemble this software.
Cheers,
Steve
I was able to Create an image of the SSL program disk Version G4.01 using RawWrite in Windows XP. (My Windows 7 didn't recognize the internal floppy drive)
Steve I sent you the image over email.
If anyone else needs this, just let me know
Regards
iL
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Thanks Ilcaccillo,
Its encouraging, if you open the file with a HEX editor you can see familiar SSL Computer Text. 8)
Steve.
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Hi Steve,
When you receive the file, can you send me a copy ?
Thanks,
Pascal
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Hi Steve,
When you receive the file, can you send me a copy ?
Thanks,
Pascal
I can send it To you, Pm your email
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I think we shouldn't devote a lot of effort dissembling the old software. This is dead technology...
With the SSL Mixed Computer project the idea is to make something totally new that serves a modern workflow.
That said, one important thing we will need to do, is to reverse the console connections and interaction with the computer:
- vca fader control / automation
- light control
- mode control
- ultimation fader + motors control
- mute/solo control + automation
etc...
I truly believe with a team effort from the community we can get a fully functional computer replacement, with a modern feel and a great set of features within an year span of development.
This would become the community project, made with the effort of everyone.
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I agree, I'm dissembling this code for historical purposes and although its dead technology it must not be forgotten, in my opinion this is the forerunner to all modern music production(?), SSL may have abandoned it but I haven't - and who knows it may throw up something useful for the new computer system.
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Hi old SSL software people (I don't mean you are old, just the technology! Heck, actually, I'm probably one of the oldest people on this forum at nearly 58 ...!).
I have been following the various posts regarding building a replacement SSL computer system with interest and notice how you all vary your views as times goes on and you find out what is involved and how complex it may be.
I hope this can happen at some point but I can't help for now as I don't deal with computer code, only wires, connectors and metalwork.
At some point when this gets near the point of being in production or as a prototype, I can help, especially with my past knowledge of SSL systems from about 1980. At the moment, I will read the posts and wait along with everyone else who wants this to be a viable modern day SSL computer replacement.
From what I have witnessed on this site, there seems to be the know how here to make this new computer and, of course, it's been over 30 years since it was first designed, a huge amount of time for some piece of technology to still be in use. I guess credit must go to the original SSL software people (like Paul Bamborough) for such a brilliant and future proofed design to begin with. I doubt whether Paul, nor others, would have anticipated that their original concept would have lasted as long as it has!
Continue the good work people and contact me one day when I can be of assistance.
Finally, can people possibly refrain from including general quotes when replying to emails as they take up loads of scrolling space and time.
Thanks and regards from Jim Lassen
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Hi,
If one got the time and motivation to disassemble and analise the SSL code, I think there should be some pieces that could enlighten the inner workings of the software. One thing that I can think of that could be of good use is that Ultimation motor/electronics control, since this is still in the secrets of the gods.
I bet someone out there, should have the source code of the software stashed somewhere! ;)
I personally believe we can achieve great results with the SSL Mixed computer and explained my reasons why on the SSL Mixed computer forums. We have here members with a very deep knowledge and reverse engineering capabilities on the SSL console, also high level skills on electronics engineering, embedded systems and software design. Also, we are a very united and motivated community, which is the main and most important factor to be able to make this project possible.
Just as an update, you haven't seen post on the SSL Mixed computer forum, but the project is not dead. I'm waiting for my console to arrive the studio (end of March) so I can start giving the first steps into it and organize the tasks we all need to start doing to understand the "beast" under the hood.
Cheers,
Artur
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Hi,
I agree with both Jim and Arthur.
My primary motivation is to build a new system with components today, and durable in time !!!
However, we must not forget the past, and try to understand and keep track of what has been done
I think it can help us build a new and nice system.
Cheers,
Pascal
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I'm sure we can make a system that takes on the heritage and 3 decades of acquired experience and catches the SSL nuances, giving it a modern workflow, with today's needs.
Also the idea is to grab common components and affordable, leaving only the interface electronics to design and then the manufacture process. Something that I believe that within the community we can get it at affordable group prices. It's much more cheaper to manufacture 50 cards, than 5. ;)
Of course we have to be realistic and many prototypes will see the light of day before a final 1.0 version. Also it will be best to take a modular and Agile approach, where we develop small and incremental features, with short releases.
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I have disassembled the boot sector of the G series program disk image kindly donated by ilcaccillo. I acquired part of the NM4 instruction set from a 4/30 disassembler written in BCPL which I ported to Python. After running the disassembler it was fairly straightforward to work out what was going on, I have attached the output along with my interpretation of what’s happening.
The boot program loads two files, one presumably containing configuration data and the other executable code which it then runs, this file is small (7168 bytes) so must load more program files when it gets going.
I did this mainly as an experiment to see if we had enough information to reverse engineer the program disk, just in case we need to. I have looked at other code on the disk and it all looks very encouraging - it should be possible to figure out the project file format if necessary.
Kind regards,
Steve
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Very good work Steve! Impressive! :D
Yes indeed it looks very promising. If you want I have the instruction set manuals for the NM4. I've been diving into the Computer Automation documentation, and supposedly there should exist a BUS debug card that would let you debug the instructions of the CA Computer in live mode. If we could find one of these, it could be a great addition if one needed to debug in live mode certain parts of the code. Have you found any interesting strings that might give you a hint what each part of the code does?
Please add me to facebook (https://www.facebook.com/adassumpcao) so we can talk better about this. I have some ideas regarding the SSLMixed computer that you might like to hear and contribute.
Cheers,
Artur
I have disassembled the boot sector of the G series program disk image kindly donated by ilcaccillo. I acquired part of the NM4 instruction set from a 4/30 disassembler written in BCPL which I ported to Python. After running the disassembler it was fairly straightforward to work out what was going on, I have attached the output along with my interpretation of what’s happening.
The boot program loads two files, one presumably containing configuration data and the other executable code which it then runs, this file is small (7168 bytes) so must load more program files when it gets going.
I did this mainly as an experiment to see if we had enough information to reverse engineer the program disk, just in case we need to. I have looked at other code on the disk and it all looks very encouraging - it should be possible to figure out the project file format if necessary.
Kind regards,
Steve
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Thanks Artur
It would be great to see the NM4 instruction set manuals, there are lots of gaps to fill in. Most instructions are fairly easy to work out, others like XNX - index next instruction and CSK - 3 way compare less so.
There are strings to give clues about what does what, although for now I will carry on disassembling linearly rather than jumping ahead, if people are interested I will post the next installment soon, lets see what the next 7168 bytes do ;)
I have been considering writing a emulator, from what I have seen so far this shouldn't be too time consuming and could be fun.
Cheers,
Steve.
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Awesome work!!!
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Hi Steve,
I've sent an email to Lars from the Computer Automation museum in hope that he has complete Assembly Manuals for the NM4 processors that he can scan and upload to the online site. I'm still waiting for the reply and these seem a nightmare to find. I have a bunch of tables with instructions, but I believe these do not cover the complete instruction set. I've also tried to find manuals for the Forman CPU, since almost for sure these shared the same instruction set, but these are even more impossible to find. I am also exploring other alternative through other old-time contacts to see if get my hands on these manuals.
If you can code an emulator that would be very interesting, because we could see exactly how key routines between the console and the computer work exactly and able to debug them.
Keep up the awesome work! :)
Cheers,
Artur
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Steve,
I might have hit the jackpot with my google searching skills! ;)
Check this out: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/computerAutomation/
There are lots of reference manuals, although not for the NM4 familiy, but for the LSI one. I'm sure there is some similarities between the processors and that you might find some useful info on the programming reference manuals.
I've already downloaded them all, if somehow they disappear from there. :)
Check it out and tell me what you think!
Cheers,
Artur
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Hi Steve,
Very nice work !!!
If I can help you, or if we could work together on this subject ?
Cheers,
Pascal
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Hi Artur
good find! Even though most of this information regards the LSI2 and earlier machines there is considerable similarity that will help. There is some NM4 info on the site, the NM4 general information document has a instruction set (but no opcodes), timing and a list of differences between different models. I think Marc may have uploaded this document to the forum a few months ago, it certainly was a great help.
Pascal,
Good plan to work together on this, I will tidy up what I have and send it on (if could PM me your email address), it may take me a few days.
I think now that between us we have the technology to reverse engineer the workings of the computer we need work out the best way to use our combined skills and knowledge to help develop the new computer.
Is there a specific area that needs attention first? I was going to document the interface between the computer and the desk starting from the IO map. At-least with this we would know what to look for in the code, its is easier to search for IO instructions mapped to a specific device and work backwards.
Out of interest, will the new computer be required to be compatible with projects / TR setups from on traditional systems?
Cheers,
Steve.
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Hi Steve,
No, the idea is to break compatibility with old projects and totally forget the old OS system. That would be starting the project with a burden and unnecessary effort in my opinion.
What's being thought out, and you can see the discussion that we already had on this subject, is to design a complete new system from the ground up that uses the current console/computer interface for all console elements. Some immediate things I can remember is:
- VCA faders + electronics
- Ultimation faders + electronics (motor control)
- Solo Mute
- LEDs
- Total Recall
- Console modes of operation
...
Basically is to be able to control everything the SSL computer controlled and work with it to build a more modern computer that adapts to modern needs.
I already have some initial hardware prerequisites aligned up but that's all open for discussion and depending on our findings (I myself in the meanwhile found some reservations regarding certain details on the initial designs).
Some important things to discover through the software that might be useful and ease up the reverse engineer on the hardware side is to find and document how this communication is achieved through the several interfaces the SSL computer provides. This includes bit resolution, byte order, byte protocol, addresses, etc. This would help greatly to the task!
If you don't mind, I will ask Mattia to move this topic into the "Research" sub-forum of the "SSL Mixed Computer" forum, since we are now digging more into this subject and getting important info for the SSL Mixed computer project. Also be free to open any new threads on this forum, so we can have everything organized in there and easy to find.
I will also try to provision during the weekend a Wiki so we can start organizing all the info we get on the old computer and the new one. What do you think?
Cheers,
Artur
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Hi everybody,
I would like to have the knowledge to help you in this wonderful project!
Anyway I am with you as a supporter and maybe by the time I will be able to bring you some help.
Thanks for that.
Ari
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Hi everybody,
I would like to have the knowledge to help you in this wonderful project!
Anyway I am with you as a supporter and maybe by the time I will be able to bring you some help.
Thanks for that.
Ari
Hi Ari,
Me and Steve have been doing some preliminary background research on this. We may have some design ideas during the next week, something very very promising. The project will be launched in full force as soon as I have my console in the room so I can start reversing the electronics. Everyone is welcome to come aboard, since this is a project from the community and to the community.
I will post more news very soon!
I will also getting ready a Wiki platform for the project so we can start organize all the info, documentation, research, schematics, etc.
Cheers!
Artur
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Anyone been in touch with these people?
http://www.dyslexiasoft.com/about.html
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Like :)