Author Topic: Phantom Power Issue  (Read 8926 times)

sintech

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 839
  • Karma: +61/-0
    • Bristol, UK
Re: Phantom Power Issue
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2013, 11:23:49 AM »
Yes, it should be connected to pin 1 at the XLR/mic end, as Pelle pointed out, the microphone has no reference to ground, hence the problem.

silvershark

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phantom Power Issue
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2013, 12:42:38 PM »
Ok

Once again excuse my lack of knowledge but if I understand correctly I need to connect the end of this to the XLR wall box where my mic signal is coming from?

Many thanks

Matt Sartori

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 733
  • Karma: +21/-0
    • London
    • Solid State Logic Fanatics Database
Re: Phantom Power Issue
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2013, 01:07:14 PM »
Ok

Once again excuse my lack of knowledge but if I understand correctly I need to connect the end of this to the XLR wall box where my mic signal is coming from?

Many thanks

yes but highly recommended to get a tech in to have a look at the whole thing as it sounds as if there might be other things worth looking at in that instance.
my 2 cents.

Mattia.

silvershark

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phantom Power Issue
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2013, 01:19:00 PM »
I agree, I think I will get someone to just give it a look over

Can anyone recommend a tech in the London area?

Grant


Matt Sartori

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 733
  • Karma: +21/-0
    • London
    • Solid State Logic Fanatics Database
Re: Phantom Power Issue
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2013, 01:51:46 PM »
myself!  ;)


Mattia.


marcmozart

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 483
  • Karma: +29/-0
    • Frankfurt/Germany
    • Mozart & Friends
Re: Phantom Power Issue
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2013, 02:08:53 PM »
1992 SSL 4048 G-Series
Mix Engineer Blog
http://www.mixedbymarcmozart.com

silvershark

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phantom Power Issue
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2013, 02:30:41 PM »
PM'd you

Thanks
G

jimlfixit

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 359
  • Karma: +44/-0
    • Maidenhead, Bucks, UK
Phantom Power and mic screening
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2013, 01:22:03 AM »
Hi dude. Quote: 'I've had a hell of a job with the DL wiring as well..'

Why is the DL wiring a problem? The SSL mic DL wiring (DL's 01 and 02) are wired balanced into the SSL and to the patchbay with all three wires (hot, cold and screen) connected to the patch (Row A) from the DL. They then get fully normalled down to row B and the wires from there into the channels have no screens connected at the patch but the twin screen balanced cable goes to Bicc B on the upper buscard and the screens are connected on that at the 6 way Bicc.

From there, the upper buscard is screened to one of the copper earth bars running throughout the console and has the signal ground terminated at the end near the console connector panel.

I would suggest looking at one of the following locations (all of these have the screen wire connected):

1    The installation wiring at DL's 1 and 2 on the SSL 96 way DL sockets should be fully wired (hot, cold AND screen).

2    Also, any studio mic panel wiring should be wired the same with screens connected to make it a balanced connection from the studio panel to the SSL connector panel.

3    All studio loose mic cables should be wired with screens 1 to 1 (especially to avoid AC earth leakage and possible death).

Remember screens should not be dropped for mic cabling between the mic and the SSL especially as a singer may have their lips against a mic and could get killed if an AC earthing failure happened further down the signal chain. The SSL is AC earthed depending on the links in your power supply and studio technical grounding scheme but if the patchbay is remote and in the same metal rack as other, maybe unbalanced gear, I can really see an accident about to happen if an unbalanced bit of gear has a fault, the whole rack goes AC live, along with the remote patchbay, and the singer gets electrocuted ... maybe not such a bad thing if he/she can't sing in tune!!!

If these rules are followed, you should be okay but, if the installation wiring is different to this, you may may problems.

My post doesn't really address the 48v phantom mic problem but could be relevant.

Hope this helps and regards from Jim Lassen (www.profcon.co.uk). Also on FACEBOOK
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 02:11:02 AM by jimlfixit »

jimlfixit

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 359
  • Karma: +44/-0
    • Maidenhead, Bucks, UK
Re: Phantom Power Issue
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2013, 09:02:47 PM »
Silver Shark (Grant?)

Me again, I've just seen an earlier post from you about an earth wire connected to input 1 on the patchbay. Along with some of the other patchbays with SSL (but not user option wiring), this wire is probably a green 7, 16 or 32/0.2 tech grounding wire and should go to the end of the two copper bars in the block by the tech ground point hanging out at the console connector panel. It is an SSL internal signal ground wire and not directly related to the studio installation.

There you will (or should) also see a bunch of other green wires from the other patchbays all screwed into the copper block. The patchbays, having metal front panels, are screwed to the frame which, in itself, is technical ground but the green wire soldered to one of the patchbay jack screen positions (any one of the 48 or 56, it doesn't matter which) is actually a hardwired ground to the copper block, even though the patchbay is screwed into the frame as well. The patchbay screens are shorted to the frame and the green wire, via the copper block, also ends up shorted to the frame and goes to the 0BA (M6) technical grounding point.

The mic panels are a separate issue as I tried to explain in my last post but I'll clarify the whole signal path again.

1   All studio mic leads have their grounds connected both ends.
2   All studio wallbox wiring also has screens connected at the wallbox AND at the DL end.
3   From the DL, the balanced twin screen cables go to the patchbays and the individual screens are connected to the bantam jacks.
4   In this case, the mic lines (they should really be called mic sources in my view as they are not a line signal!) are fully normalled down from row A to B (just the hot and cold, not the screen on any patchbay).
5   Row B (which is NOT individually screened at the patchbay end) takes the signal to the upper buscard Bicc B (which is screened).
6   So, from the mic right through (via wallboxes and DL's) to the patchbay row A (mic lines!), the screen is fully connected.
7   The individual mic screens go to the patchbay on row A. This is screwed into the console frame (which becomes part of the technical ground). Also, the green wire, as an extra measure, ensures the patchbay screens get taken to the copper block which ends up being screwed to the frame as well, creating one big happy tech earth ideally!
8   The SSL internal wires from row B (mic inputs) are unscreened at the patch end but ARE screened at the 6 way Bicc end.
9   From the Bicc end, they hit the upper buscard and that has a 50/0.25 white wire (SSL couldn't get the same size wire in green at the time and stuck to white!!!) linked to one of the copper bars (one was for mix earths and the other for power earths) for each section of 8 channels.
10   The two copper bars come together at the end and are screwed to the frame (see point 7).
11   The  idea was that the SSL console would be the hub of ALL of the studio technical screens before going off to a studio technical earth position, ideally just before the main earthing stake or point.

So, let the console grounding design do it's job and connect ALL the screens right through from the mic to the console patchbay. Effects and multitrack stuff could be different as they are bi-directional and there is a risk of ground loops but the one way mic circuit (with associated phantom powering) especially needs the signal ground connected to work properly and not cause injury or death!

To address your point, connect the loose green wire to the copper block with the others which may be there (it should be a similar length).

I think your 48v problem lies with screens being dropped at the wallbox or DL's, hence no phantom power as it needs the screen connected throughout, as detailed above, to make it work (and be safe). If someone has dropped a mic screen between the mic and patchbay, they should be ... (I can't say as it's too rude!).

Hope this helps and sorry for all the detail. I have prepared a comprehensive schematic of the SSL power and ground wiring with help from Sintech and others on this forum and will send it to Mattia for inclusion soon.

Also, Sintech (Andy H) visited me today and suggested I PM you regarding other wiring issues you may have so I will do that now.

Finally, why I am doing this shxt on a Friday night when I should be out begging as usual?

That's it, I'll shut up now people. This should hopefully earn me another 63 positive Karma points (I'm trying to catch up with Andy ... no chance really!).

Regards from Jim Lassen (www.profcon.co.uk). Also on FACEBOOK


« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 10:07:01 PM by jimlfixit »

marcmozart

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 483
  • Karma: +29/-0
    • Frankfurt/Germany
    • Mozart & Friends
Re: Phantom Power Issue
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2013, 11:14:11 PM »
Haha, bring on the Karma for Jim - cabling advice can save lives!
1992 SSL 4048 G-Series
Mix Engineer Blog
http://www.mixedbymarcmozart.com

Matt Sartori

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 733
  • Karma: +21/-0
    • London
    • Solid State Logic Fanatics Database
Re: Phantom Power Issue
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2013, 12:12:14 AM »


That's it, I'll shut up now people. This should hopefully earn me another 63 positive Karma points (I'm trying to catch up with Andy ... no chance really!).

Regards from Jim Lassen (www.profcon.co.uk). Also on FACEBOOK

Just gave you mine!
 ;)

Mattia.

jimlfixit

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 359
  • Karma: +44/-0
    • Maidenhead, Bucks, UK
Correct tech grounding can save lives!
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2013, 01:12:41 AM »
Ta for the Karma points Marc and Mattia. I was on 18 and Andy on 28 but I notice we have both moved up 2 so, no difference! I'm only kidding on this of course as Andy deserves his massive lead with all the effort he puts in to solving problems on this forum. Also, on that note, I reckon Mattia, who started this whole forum off in July 2012, needs more than just 5 ... come on people ... vote for him!

Anyway, I'm about to send Mattia and Andy (Sintech) my final version of the SSL power/tech ground wiring tonight so it can be posted in some form here. Apart from what I have already written, this should clarify most of the SSL actual console internal power and tech grounding issues (ignoring the power supplies themselves).

Regardos all from Jim Lassen
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 02:13:56 AM by jimlfixit »

sintech

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 839
  • Karma: +61/-0
    • Bristol, UK
Re: Phantom Power Issue
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2013, 01:15:43 AM »
Jim, you just got a Karma point from me too!

xmax

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 284
  • Karma: +10/-3
Re: Phantom Power Issue
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2013, 01:46:49 AM »
Lets hope nobody would lift the "screen" on the mic lines!

jimlfixit

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 359
  • Karma: +44/-0
    • Maidenhead, Bucks, UK
Lifting mic screens and tech grounding etc
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2013, 02:06:45 AM »
Xmax. That SSL power/grounding schematic is old school as they say and I remember it from when I used to work at SSL. I've just sent Mattia and Andy our finished (it never is really!) version so it can be posted on this forum. It contains loads more details of both the console power and tech grounding. I guess Mattia will show this in the Technical Manuals and documentation menu soon.

Thanks for the Karma point Andy, I'm only a mere 9 behind you now! Regards all from Jim Lassen.