SSlmixed.com Forum
Tech discussion => 5K Series console => Topic started by: Bubbes on November 15, 2015, 04:39:36 PM
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Hello everybody,
my name is Jens, i`m new here and i`m am looking for a automation system for my 5000 console
i`ve already have a SL590 total recall computer as well and want now "upgrade" my studio setup
I heard that the 5K uses the same computer for automation as the 4K G or G+
But maybe that THD-Labs system would do that job as well..
any thoughts ??
Cheers... Jens
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From what I've learned the pin out and fader control is a bit different on the 5K.
I could be wrong. If the original 4K computer works then the THD will as well since they're compatible.
..and, our system will work also.
automanefforts.com
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There are different things... the CUTS are controlled differently. On the original computer you have individual CUT connectors, these are for the 5k automation.
If the I/O cards are the same, I suppose nothing else changes, but if they change for a 5k configuration then the I/O will also change.
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Hey, first of all thanks for the answer !
this is whats in my SL536, i don't know if i would need different cards or whatever
there are no ribbon connectors or so, thats why im so cuffed at the moment...
I don't have any ribbon cable at all
i don't know if it`s worth it at the end :)
Cheers... Jens
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Well, I am not acquainted with the 5k architecture, from what I understand it's a different beast when compared with the 4/6/8K consoles, despite SSL used the same computer for the automation.
What I know, from taking a glance at it while doing the R&D for the SSL Mixed Computer, is that the interface with the legacy computer was the S14 cable (50 way ribbon) + an extra CUTs cable. So it seems to be 2 cables per channel bay (8 faders for the 5k?). While on the 4/6/8K everything goes on a S14 cable per bay (8 channels).
This leads me to suspect (and this is only speculation) that perhaps either they put more faders into each S14 cable, or each fader needed more control lines (and that's why they had to separate the CUTs, and I suspect even what they call CUTS, might have more information there because it's a 20-way ribbon). If this is true... i also suspect the I/O cards necessary for the 5k might also be different, although the CPU main card is the same.
Do you have a service manual for the console?
EDIT: I was looking into the computer service manual and it's common to the 5000 console. You should study this manual to learn the differences and requirements for the automation/mixing computer.
Artur
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Here's the computer layout for the Sl5000 consoles:
AI = Analog Inputs
AO = Analog Outputs
MF = Master Fader
L&S = Lights & Switches
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Hi Jens,
Welcome ! Nice to have another 5k user here !
I know nothing about SSL computers, but i've read on the internet that the G+ of a 5k is not the same as a G+ of a 4/6/8 k. But maybe it's only the pinout indeed. And i don't believe everything I read on the internet anyway, hahaha.
You could contact Keith Skerrit of Recycled Audio. He should be able to give you an answer.
If he doesn't respond, send a PM to Matt, he probably likes to know this stuff as well.
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The computer is the same it seems, just the card configuration/setup changes. This includes the separate CUTs cables.
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Hi Jens,
great to have another 5K owner here - welcome.
The SL536 has nothing to do with the automation computer - unfortunately.
It is an external rack that holds additional boards for certain features of the 5K console.
In your case, as you can see from the pictures, something talkback and fader M/T switch cards.
The switch cards are usually for the 'fader start' feature (if you have such faders in your console) or for switching tape decks i.e. record en-/disable, safe mode etc.
I attached an image of a SL508 fader with a 'fader start' option.
The M/T switch setup is even more complex but if it is wired on your console it should work.
An automation computer (I have Ultimation and am talking about this one) involves a lot more than just the computer.
I also attached a picture of my computer which has 2 floppy drives (3.5" already) and a 19" rack that holds the necessary cards.
The other picture is the computer back (upper part)
From every bay of the console, 2 cables are running to the computer : 1 x 50 and 1 x 20 pin ribbon.
I am pretty sure that the boards are different in the computer as well.
The computer rack and processor seem to be the same for the 4K and 5K consoles.
The boards have different numbers though, like the AIO is 622041E1 for the 4K and CF8241 for the 5K console.
In addition, as you can see from Arturs pic, the use of the slots varies.
In addition to that, if you do want to have fader automation, you need different faders and the matching buscards for these.
Not to mention the racks that hold a control board for each fader.
The SL590 is solely for total recall of the button, pot and fader settings.
But it's great that you have this one already.
Matt
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Hello Matt,
thanks for your answer !! I really appreciate !
Own the desk for about a year or so, it works fine, just two aux send cards in two channels aren`t work, but i can deal with it at the moment.
Have a lot of spare modules, faders, spare parts, power supply, Lemo patchbay, additional meter bridge. the desk was installed in a german radio station mobile truck
and was mostly use for live broadcasting concerts live on the radio, blues and jazz...
i have some SL506 and some SL508 faders as well.
In total 11 ribbon cables from the desk to the SL536 (i have two SL536 in total)
but there are smaller ribbons, i don't know what kind of at the moment :)
Nothing in Bay a
4 in Bay B
6 in Bay C (Master section) some of them for the SL551 switch cards
nothing in Bay D
one in Bay E
There are some D-Sub connectors in Bay D, but not in use...
i don't have 50 pin ribbons art all on the desk
The SL590 total recall computer saves and recall everything on the console, all pods, Faders and so on
all the switches are saves in the onboard instant recall computer
and a picture from the desk...
So maybe the desk won't work with a automation system at all ?!?
i don't know.... i contacted Keith from recycle already, and he directed me to this forum.
Thanks again for your help !!!
Cheers.. Jens
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Sorry that I'm posting off-topic, but ....
Nice desk ! 510 on each monochannel, cool.
Only a few auxes not working, that's not an issue. Be glad the 510s work !
But is the problem the auxes from the 507/527s, or the 513/523 modules ? It should be a pretty easy fix.
By the way : could you post the picture of your console here as well ?: http://forum.sslmixed.com/index.php?topic=918.0
Also add your location for the list of existing 5ks :)
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Hi Jens,
really nice desk - I wish I had that much compressors for mine :-).
There's no reason why this desk shouldn't work with the automation computer - thing is : you have to have one.
If you only want to automate the switches this can be done with the SL581 : it can talk MIDI and you can 'press' the keys by MIDI. So you are able to recall previously made settings.
Fader automation is a different story. For that you need the SSL computer shown in my last post.
Since I have G+ Ultimation system, I am not sure if fader automation is possible in a different way.
Matt
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Hi guys,
Regarding the SSL 5k, from what I've been able to understand from the service manual, I believe the fader automation is only possible with motorized faders, not the ones you currently have installed. Additionally it seems the 5k supported the Ultimation faders (also valid for the 4/6/8k consoles) and a different fader system specific to the 5k consoles.
Matt, can you share a photo of your faders please?
Cheers,
Artur
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Hi guys,
Matt, can you share a photo of your faders please?
Hi Artur,
I already did : http://forum.sslmixed.com/index.php?topic=538.msg3477#msg3477
Cheers,
Matt
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Eeehhh, well,
I don't know how the 5k ultimation or 4k automation works, but the 506/508 faders have a computer send and return for the CV. The faders just don't move.
I once had the idea to use a behringer cybermix for adding faderautomation on my 5k from the DAW. But this needs quite a bit of finetuning. I once managed to drive the cybermix through midi from Cubase, but there's more stuff needed to get it all up and running. After the fun-experiment made clear it's possible, I moved on to looking at other things that had way more priority. Obviously, an additional circuit using an opamp is needed to convert the CV values of the CM to the values needed for the 5k, but this is not a real problem.....
A bit off topic, but just saying that 506 and 508 faders should be useable for faderautomation. So, yes, I think Pelle's system is a very good candidate !
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The ultimation faders and VCA faders both send CV to the computer and back. The difference is that ultimation faders, when in motors ON mode, the control voltage that's returned by the computer controls the motors, which move the fader and affect the audio (the audio passes through the fader). In VCA faders mode (motors OFF) it behaves much like the VCA faders (non moving). The CV send/returns goes from and to the VCA amp. In this case the fader track controls the VCA level and doesn't pass any audio.
Are the 506/508 faders the non moving ones that shows on the photo?
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Yes, correct.
non-moving VCA faders, and, they also have the ability to follow DC groups.
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As I don't have enough time to implement all different interfaces I happily donate some of my hardware for anyone who wants to extend it with ultimation, 5K or what not.
I've already approached Artur about this but I understand that you all prioritize the SSL mixed project.
If you want to fast forward you can use my hardware and develop your own in/out card. Or just use some kind of adaptor from my EX08 card.
I've got open source libraries for xCode (C/C++/Obj-C) and NodeJS.
I also got some semi-open Windows code and a ready to go HUI app(OS X) which converts between my protocol and HUI.
I come in peace :-)
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Hi Pelle,
that'd be great if I could get some parts and libraries from you so I can experiment with my 5000 stuff.
Matt
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If it's just the hardware pin out that needs to be joined. And, if it's just +5 cv back and forth. Then you don't need to change anything on my software side.
So, I guess some kind of an adaptor could be used.
Even for ultimation.
You'll need something to convert the serial commands for switches and LEDs to adapt to the hard wired lines.
This is ultimation. I don't know how the 5k does it.
Another approach would be to develop a new card for my backplane.
That would need firmware of course and while it's doable it's a longer road.
I use PIC processors and I write C code compiled with Microchip C18.
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The chassis is the most expensive part. If you get my backplane board alone with one EX08 card you'll get in and out of a computer thru USB. Either my old windows app or the new one which is under OSX.
Power it with +-12V.
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(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/22/8a5a00d5f8f427590faf15ffe915a8f2.jpg)
Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk
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If you really need to brew your own software I use standard HID protocol.
I'll give you a data map of the CV96 protocol.
Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk
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Well, I don't NEED to brew my own software but I want to be able to maybe enhance it if necessary.
If it comes to hardware development of a new board though, I am lost.
I can adapt things to a certain extent but my main knowledge is programming.
Once I did do some coding for a HUI software so that I can use my Sony DMX100 with PT.
And I really would like to build an interface between my SSL and a DAW ..... much like THD is doing it.
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Ok,
I understand.
Well, I guess both my system and the Canadians has that feature already.
I'm not sure I'll give away free hardware for a personal brew without kick back opportunity.
An Ultimation add-on would be sweet though since it would extend the range.
I'm already working on implementations for other console makers to broaden the CV96's compability.
It was also used as a synth modular controller once with great success. :-)
http://www.hackathon.io/projects/4440 (http://www.hackathon.io/projects/4440)
Still, I can give you the HID protocol + the HUI router if you want to fork it in someway.
I don't want to shoot Artur and the SSLmixed Computer in the foot though.
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PelleG,
Like i said before, we are not competition, our projects have different goals. We are very happy to see your system move forward and get more and more evolved packed with features. Hell yah, you've been the first to pave the road ahead, you deserve a cake and a 6 pack of beer! ;)
And as you know, we've been able to chat several times, I am glad to share any know how as I know you'll do the same. We are an open community and that's the entire goal of this endeavor. I understand that you have a business and an investment to manage and that your approach needs to be different, but you'll always be welcome here and we'll always be willing to help with whatever you need. In the end, we all have to gain. I don't have any objections with any other endeavors and projects, I'll be quite happy to see the community interested and committed. Only this way we'll guarantee we'll have working consoles in 20 years! ;)
Regarding the Ultimation, the big difference is the control bus. While control voltage is retro-compatible with VCA faders, all the rest its not. The control bus (CA Bus) allows to read/write an 8 bit word from/into the fader electronics. Here's a summary of what can you do with the bus: group thumbwheel (something you can't do with VCA faders), status switch, cut switch (it's a bit not a voltage), touch sense, servo/motor fail, TR selection, Trim, Abs, Alt LEDs, Solo Isolate, CUT from computer, Motors off, VCA select. All this is done through the CA BUS, interfaced by the CA card on the computer, which replaced the LEDS & Switches card.
One need the right electronics, the correct polling rate, to read and write into these pins. You can't do that with the same VCA card electronics.
Cheers,
Artur
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By the way, still on the 5000 topic, I think whoever is interested to support the 5000s should start by studying the service manuals, checking cable interface, pinouts, voltages... Overall, what's really necessary and what are the differences between the other SSL models. With this, I think both Pelle's system, or even the SSL Mixed Computer system are modular enough to develop a 5000 I/O card and work with it. The backbone is all the same, if the cards know how to talk with each other, the rest is much like plug & play. Of course there might be necessary some software development, but I guess even this one can be made modular to enable to plug module extensions. If not, and now I talk as manager of the SSL Mixed Computer project, we'll be more than willing to develop the necessary software to support the I/O module, or open the code to enable this.
Just my 2 cents,
Cheers,
Artur
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Cool beans!
About the CA bus. Is this a bus with ONE master at the computer end talking to all faders or is it handled thru every fader?
I know I looked at it some year ago and I think understood it then. Forgot it now.
It was a simple addressing - read/write thing.
Either way, I guess an adapter card just handling that bus could be a pretty quick fix for my system.
I guess the simplest thing would be to translate the Ultimation switches and LEDs to emulate the existing ones on my motor fader.
Then the protocol can remain untouched.
Since I don't know a local Ultimation desk I pushed it to the (infinite) future.
But, if someone can help me with the testing/developing I can route/layout/program something pretty quick.
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Hi Pelle, hi Artur,
Pelle, I don't want this for some personal brew.
What I see is, that I can't get further without hardware support. And I think it makes no sense that I start something completely new just fo myself.
The communication with other interested people is what a project really drives forward.
I am willing to share my efforts with the community and to see this as a different approch.
Artur stated that the 5000 consoles are not the primary goal for the SSLmixed computer. So the only thing I can do is to put as much effort in the 5k support as I can.
So I was glad about your offer for hardware since I can do software better and wouldn't have to care about hardware development but can concentrate on the software.
But I'm glad if you share the HID protocol and the HUI router - so that's a starting point as well.
Artur : I've already digged deep into the bits and pieces of the 5k .... not deep enough to understand everything though.
I also requested a forum for the differences between the desks if you remember.
Since I don't have all the docs for the 4K/6K/8K there's no way for me to know all the differences in detail.
I'd really like to contribute but don't feel 'heard' as a 5k owner - somehow.
Anyway - we'll see where this leads us to - hopefully stuff that's valuable for everyone
Matt
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I understand fully. It would help my system as well.
But. If you've got ultimation faders then you'll need is the hardware to talk digitally to them.
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Hi guys,
Regarding the 5000 support we have decided not to invest there due the very little amount of consoles out there, the complex console configuration variations which would raise even more question marks, and the inherent different interface to the console, which implies more ports and space (depending on the fader system). We decided that at this point, the priority would be the 4/6/8k consoles, which we are full-filling as our time and dedication allows to. We need to focus building a good well established base, hardware and software wise. This doesn't mean we can't look at the 5000 consoles in a future term...but no compromises.
With this said, and since the SSLMixed Computer project was always intended to be a community effort, we support community efforts to enable the 5000 support into our hardware base, if there is enough interest. It's never an easy task, and be prepared for a long journey, since the R&D, hardware development and prototyping does take time, specially if you're not doing this on a daily basis. This is why we encourage that any initiative in this direction should be coordinated so no one falls into a bottomless pit.
We are currently carrying out field tests of our hardware base, and we hope to have more stuff soon ready to show you guys. I suppose any 5000 R&D, and considering the time it takes, could fall into our timeline, since by then our hardware base would be ready to test and plugin "3rd party developed" hardware modules.
I think, if a good R&D phase is carried out, the output will serve to build either a module for a SSL Mixed Computer or a Pelle's CV96.
Cheers,
Artur
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Hi Pelle,
Regarding Ultimation, it's not easy to condense here how the entire system works. But basically the key aspects you need to understand how the system works is basically that these faders user the same send/return lines, with similar voltages (to the VCA fader system), to control either the motor DC (motors on) or the VCA amp (motors off), the latter much like the VCA consoles.
All the rest you see on the fader is now controlled by the CA bus (digital bus), namely, the computer (through the CA card which replaced the Lights & Switches card on the non-ultimation system). Some of the controlled elements I already stated before: LEDs, switch, CUTs read/write, motors mode (on / off), thumbwheel group, etc. The CA bus is not a serial bus, but rather a parallel bus, were 8 bits are sent/return for read/write operations. The read/write operations are controlled in a polling fashion where the computer poles each fader in a bank (bay), bank by bank. The faders are not autonomous (asynchronous), they are slaved to the computer control. So, for write operations the computer has to WRITE 8 bits with the status it wants, for the read operation, the computer as to READ 8 bits with the status the fader has at that particular time.
While in the VCA faders the computer has direct access and even controls/powers directly some of the fader elements, such as LEDs, on the Ultimation this is not true.
There are two key elements to this system, the first is the BUS card. The BUS card is the card that is installed one per bay, which allows to connect 8 faders cartridges. This card is "intelligent", in the sense it's just not an interconnection bus card, because you have to issue the Fader Address to select which fader you want to read or write on the BUS. The Fader Address configures all the necessary electronics on the BUS card, which allows you to select the target fader (1-8) and make sure that on the other end of the BUS you have one fader talking with you and not all! :)
The third element, is the 352 card (control card), that exists on each fader. Each fader is composed by a sandwich style PCB, the 352 and 353 cards. The 352 handles all the CA bus logic and communication. After the fader selection, when you issue a read/write, you are interfacing with the 353 card, which in turn controls all the aspects I mentioned earlier.
I think this gives a pretty good picture of the overall system.
Cheers,
Artur
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Ahh. Ok. I remember.
Sorry for topic-detour but I just want to finalize the Ultimation connection to the CV96 idea.
If I made my next EX08 revision like this:
(http://automanefforts.com/AE_ult.jpg)
..with a plug in PCB for LEDs and switches.
I can easily make a CA vaersion of that plug in PCB later.
They share only the LEDS and switches pins I assume?
Cool. Thanks. I'll do that.
Back to topic. Sorry. 8)
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I would say, they use both the same SEND/RETURN lines, all the rest is re-purposed.
Also I don't know how are you doing the CUTs detection/control on the VCA card, but if you have any specific hardware for that (not only software) you can't use that also, since CUTs is handled by the 352 card and translated to 1 bit.
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I can turn that circuit off from my firmware. No problem.
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Hi Artur,
which faders are you referring to ?
The Ultimation faders for the 5K are 518 (channel) and 538 (VCA group).
There's no 352 or 353 card.
Or are you referring to 4K Ultimation faders ?
Matt
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Hi Matt,
Yes, I am referring to the Ultimation on 4/6/8k.
As I understand, there are 2 motorized fader systems for the 5k. One is the Ultimation and another one (this is at least what the documentation leads to believe)... I don't know if the Ultimation system is the same, or this also is different. For instance, from pictures posted for the 5k motorized faders clearly they are different from the standard Ultimation faders on 4k consoles. I don't know if the interface in the end is exactly the same or not... never worked with these before. This is something that will have to be investigated by whoever owns a 5k console with motorized faders and is willing to open the hood and get the hands dirty! :)
Cheers,
Artur
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And Matt is the one! :)
I'll try to make those special cards sometime soon. And hopefully the'll match.
If you(Matt) think you can get a NodeJS setup working on Mac I can give you my diagnostic script.
From there you can lab your way to success.
I think most of this info we talked about lately is extracted from the manual.
When I started my research I could assemble all my schematics and layout without seeing a console.
So. Just find a pinout for the CV going in and out and also try to find the logic pins.
If 5K can use the 4K computer then it has to be somewhat the same.
9 CV in and out and some logic stuff per bucket.
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Hi Pelle, hi Artur,
sure I am glad to get my hands dirty (and hopefully don't blow too much).
Here's a list of involved cables and an overview of the signals they carry :
Cables used in SSL 5000 Ultimation
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S505 - Moving Fader Bus --> Moving Fader Control Rack (1 for each fader)
- Fader
- Output,
- Set / AFL / PFL / Backstop / Isolate : Switch
- Set / AFL / PFL / Trim / Abs / Isolate : Led / Lamp
- Display Lines (A0-A3)
- Motor In
S508 - Channel Fader Bus --> Moving Fader Control Rack (1 for each 2 faders)
(Docs say : to PROG/Pan Bus, IMO bus, Subgroup Bus - but this is obviously for non-Ultimation configurations)
- For each Fader
- Channel VCA DC
- Solo Mute
- AFL / PFL Fets Enable
- Fader Set Switch / Led
- Analog Data
- Status Unlock
- Master Reset
- Row Enable
- Fader Bypass
- IR address Lines A0 - A5
S544 - Cut Send/Return --> CA Computer Rack (for 8 faders)
S14E - Moving Fader Control Rack --> Computer Rack
(Docs say : from Programmable Pan Rack)
- Fader 1-8 + Master Fader :
- Switch
- Abs LED
- Trim LED
- Computer Send
- Computer Return
Per Bucket you have :
--------------------------
2 x Fader Buscards with 4 faders each
S505 from : buscard ---> Moving Fader Control Rack (1 for each fader)
4 x S508 from : Pan Module Buscard ---> Moving Fader Control Rack (1 for each 2 faders)
1 x S544 from : Bucket back panel ---> Computer Rack
1 x S14E from : Moving Fader Control Rack ---> Computer Rack
The Moving Fader Control Rack holds a 109 card for each fader
The faders share the same PCB (only few differences)
Does this shed some light on the configuration ?
I can provide docs and schematics if that helps.
Matt
P.S. btw NodeJS is up and running on my Mac .... and : thanks for hearing me :-)
P.P.S : Total recall is already implemented by MIDI connections from an extra computer (SL590) to the desk.
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Hmm. Interesting. So the S14E is there.
What is "moving fader control rack"?
Is that in the console or something at the computer side?
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The moving fader control rack sits in the console.
For every 16 channels it's a 19" 4HE unit sitting usually in the producer's table or in penthouse above the patchbay.
It holds different cards for channel and VCA group faders.
From there, the S14E is going to the computer rack.
I attached a photo for better imagination :-)
Does the S14E have different signals with the 4K computer ?
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Anyway.
It seems like the "Moving Fader Control Rack" is doing som magic with the switch and led pins.
And you already have that?
Then we need to see a pin description of the S14E for 5K.
I guess the CV lines match up but what's interesting is pin 1 to 30.
I guess since cuts are on the side it can't use the CA structure.
And Artur, one last. What is the CA return pin doing?
Plus. Enable +/- is for the RS serial line to be able to trigger the address latch when running long wires, eh?
Sorry. Always need to sidetrack.. :-[
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...Does the S14E have different signals with the 4K computer ?
I think they match from pin 31 and up since those are the CV lines.
The others are used for switches and LEDs on a VCA console and for digital communication on Ultimation.
My system also use those pins for digital com to my mother faders.
Just to start somewhere you can check pin 31 or 41 on the S14E with a multimeter and see if it ramps when moving the fader.
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I am not up and running at the moment since I am reconfiguring the centre section.
So it will take some time until I can measure something.
In addition I am running without computer since a couple of weeks to reduce the amount of components that could cause errors.
I am doing my best to get this done soon.
I attached the S14E pinout - thing is : I don't know if this is also true for Ultimation.
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It seems like the "Moving Fader Control Rack" is doing som magic with the switch and led pins.
And you already have that?
Yes I do
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...I don't know if this is also true for Ultimation.
No. This is how the VCA consoles use the pins. Everything is directly hard wired to the LEDs and switches.
Ultimation got a different labeling for pins 1 to 30.
The interesting thing is that that document say something about the "pan .." which is dedicated to 5K only.
So maybe the "Moving Fader Control Rack" just converts the standard VCA pins to whatever is needed for your faders.
If that's the case I guess any computer that works with a VCA desk works for you.
The 4K/6K/8K consoles switches between TR mode and Automation mode. When locked in TR mode the CV lines are blocked and used by multiplexer cards only.
I guess that's not the case for 5K since it handles recall differently.
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The 'programmable Pan Rack' (external) carries the joystick panning VCA calculation (8 channels aka 7.1) - so probably they're referring to that one.
The joysticks can be automated as well.
Actually, a little more is involved - a so-called IPI (Intelligent Peripheral Interface)
And there's a S14E from the IPI to the computer as well.
So it's going like this ......
Sending information :
Joystick Module -> IPI (MIDI, data are sent when moving the joystick)
patchbay, joystick input (audio) -> programmable pan Rack (EDAC) -> IPI (S801) -> computer (S14E)
Receiving information (guess) :
Computer -> IPI (S14E) -> MIDI to pan module (?)
IPI -> programmable pan Rack (S801) -> patchbay, joystick outputs (EDAC) -> Joystick module (for routing to the surround channels)
I do have this as well but it's not 'running' since I am missing the long EDAC cables that deliver the calculated VCAs from the rack in the machine room to the patchbay.
What I can do is to get the rack nearer to the desk and use a shorter cable if this helps.
Primitive thinking, but : if the S14E from the programmable pan rack has the pinout from the document above, isn't it most likely that the pinout coming from the moving fader control rack is the same ?
There's nothing to see on the back of the computer that the S14E from the programmable pan rack has to use a different connector that the S14Es from the moving fader control rack.
But if I haven't this working yet, I might be mistaken here.
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...the pinout coming from the moving fader control rack is the same ?
I wouldn't count on it. Isn't there a pinout describing the S14E for the buckets?
You already have an automation computer?
Inside the computer the logic lines(1-30) from the S14E ports should go either to switch and LED card or an Ultimation CA bus card. Or another one we haven't seen yet.
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Hi guys,
Although I don't know much about the 5000 consoles, reading Matt's description of the cables all makes sense. The 5000 was a console with a total different approach, based on plug-in modules and not a full blown channel strip, such as the 4/6/8K series. It seems this approach restricted greatly the realstate options for the 5000. So, if on the 4000 SSL could put the VCA card near the EQ card, now that's not possible since you can opt not to install any EQ at all. With this in mind, it seems, SSL opted to offload all these common stuff which needs a place onto external racks, leaving all the console real-state for the faders and optional modules.
From what I saw on Matt's description, is has all the VCA cards + ultimation logic (352 card equivalent i suspect) and perhaps more stuff specific to the 5000. This is like the "blackbox" which converts what's going on in the console into the S14 and S544 cables. It's quite smart, specially if you know that Ultimation has also the VCA option (motors off) and it heats like a beast! I guess the card that's on the 5000 ultimation faders pertains perhaps only to the motor DC part?
One thing is clear to me, there are more controls than the 4/6/8k ultimation faders, such as the AFL/PFL buttons, Master reset, Status lock, etc... etc... This is the reason the needed to put the CUTS into the S544, simply there was no more realstate. And this must mean, that the I/O cards on the computer, are also different than the I/O cards for ultimation. I would bet on that.
I am sure these must be more things that I am not seeing at this time.
What I think it's crucial to find is if there is a CA bus also on the 5000's ultimation faders. If there is, the S14E doesn't have pins to control LEDs like the VCA consoles. This is all done via the CA bus. In attach you can check what's the pinout of the S14E cable for the 4/6/8k ultimation consoles. You should find a service manual for SL5000 ultimation system.
Cheers,
Artur
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..One thing is clear to me, there are more controls than the 4/6/8k ultimation faders, such as the AFL/PFL buttons, Master reset, Status lock, etc... etc... This is the reason the needed to put the CUTS into the S544..
You might be right.
There could also be the reason of not having the VCAs to do the actual cut.
I have a feeling that all those other things might not be going to the computer at all but is merely internal logic in the 5K.
It's quick to measure the pins. Check the switch lines and see if they flip logic when status button is pressed.
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...the pinout coming from the moving fader control rack is the same ?
I wouldn't count on it. Isn't there a pinout describing the S14E for the buckets?
There's no S14E going from the buckets to the computer. They all origin from the moving fader control rack
You already have an automation computer?
Yes, and I already played around with it. But I decided to put using the automation computer to the point when my desk is configured as I want it to be.
So I went through the manual and tried out this and that to check if all faders are moving and such but didn't really dive deeper into it.
Inside the computer the logic lines(1-30) from the S14E ports should go either to switch and LED card or an Ultimation CA bus card. Or another one we haven't seen yet.
I'll check that - gotta make access to the computer back easier to open it up and check where the lines are leading to.
Some more general information :
The modules are spread over the surface comparable to a spreadsheet : every module has it's own 'cell' address.
This is necessary for the instant reset (IR) where you can quickly change all switches and routing information.
To do this, there's a module in the console (SL581) with an internal storage of the settings.
You are able to save 79 settings between which you can switch from one 'scene' to another pretty easily.
In addition to that you have a so-called routing module which is the addressee of the 'set' switch from the fader to 'enable' the channel for routing.
No automation computer is needed for that.
Getting hands on a service manual for the Ultimation is pretty hard I guess.
I do have the computer service manual - maybe it also holds the Ultimation information although I didn't see it mentioned specifically.
And as of now, I also didn't go through the service manual that much.
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Hi Pelle,
CA Return - = 0v
The ENABLE line (balanced by 75176 IC on the bus card) in conjunction with the READ/WRITE allows for selection, and read/write operations.
Cheers,
Artur
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Hi Artur,
I found this in my computer service manual (SL691G) - see attachment.
Does this shed some light on the question if there's a CA computer for the 5k as well ?
It also gives a clue about the pinouts for the boards in the computer and their meaning.
The mentioned S36 and S37 connectors are sitting on a buscard that 'collects' the pins from the S14E and S44 to route them to the LEDs & Switches or I/O cards.
Cheers,
Matt
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Hi Matt,
The think is, on the VCA consoles the LED & Switches card, is the one responsible to drive the LEDs & Switches (pretty obvious) of the faders. This card sources the power and controls the LEDs, not the faders themselves. The control pins are hardwired to the front panel connector via the S14 connector.
The Ultimation is a totally different. Who powers the LEDs and switches is the 352 card on each fader package. The computer then controls these via the CA digital bus (8 bits).
With this difference cleared out here's what I depict from the documentation you showed.
Earlier on the thread I send the difference on computer card configuration either for 4/6/8k and the 5k consoles. Clearly the 5k also have a L&S card fitted on the computer, but I can't really tell if this is only valid for VCA fader version of the 5000. This information typically one comes on the motorized faders service manual. On the 4/6/8k this is a separate manual, since it was an optional system you could buy later and retro fit. This manual shows which cards you need to replace on the computer, such as the Analog I/O and the Leds and Switches. Is this something you can find in your documentation?
On your documentation what I see a mention to the Leds&Switches card and also a CA addr pin, which only says it's the computer (Computer Automation) address pin, not a CA digital bus.
I am afraid we could be led wrong with these if we are looking into the schematics/configuration of a VCA 5000 console, while yours is motorized (ultimation). You need to make sure by searching the documentation that these connections and addressing are related to a motorized console. Also it can happen that the way SSL designed it, it's really indifferent and the same setup serves both?
Can you check this?
Cheers,
Artur
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This thread can now better be called "5k ultimation", hahaha.
But, I do have a question about the non-moving fader VCA automation : The computersend and return CV voltage : what's the range, and is the voltage linear ? Yesterday I took out the Cybermix again, now I want to look again if it's useful for modification so I can use it with my SL506 and 507/527 setup. This is one of the long-long-term projects I have on the backburner, but.... well.... thank you guys for bringing this into my head again......
hahaha.
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Hi,
Sorry you are right, we digressed from VCA into motorized faders. Maybe would be better to create 2 separate topics?
If it's like the VCA 4/6/8k consoles, you have the following CV configuration:
- 0v -> fader fully up
- 5v -> fader fully down
- 7.5v -> CUT
Cheers,
Artur
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Thanks !
I'd be surprised if it would be different, but on the other hand.... the computercut has its own dedicated pins. It's S524 on the pannermodules.....
I'lI'll double check it this weekend, but now I have at least something to start with :)
Oh, one thing : Is the voltage curve linear ?
In other words, 2.5v would be the same value as the fader in the middle ? (that's about -10dB)
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It's not linear.
Please don't split up the thread. Even if not everything is spot on topic it's close enough.
Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk
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i Artur,
thanks for your thoughts on this.
My computer is configured exactly the way that is mentioned in the differences sheet as 5000 with more than 64 I/O
This way I can be sure that the 2 sheets I just posted are referring to the cards I have installed (numbers match as well).
I opened up the computer back and it shows, that the different cables coming in (faders, cuts) are split so that the faders signals reach the faders cars (I/O) and the lights&switches signals reach the lights&switches card(s).
The 109 board I mentioned earlier is called the 'motorised fader logic board'.
Since the routing is done through the set switch and a routing module (other than with the 4k where you have the routing switches on top of the channel strip) someone must take care of the set switch if the console is operating without the computer - the configuration I am running at the moment to reduce the possible misbehavior in case there's something wrong on the computer side. This is done by the 109 card.
....... more to come .....
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Hi Matt,
Ok, so it seems the way the 5000 architecture was thought is a bit different than the 4/6/8k consoles and we shouldn't make any assumptions. On the 5000 you still have the L&S card and also you have a separate controller for the motorized faders. I haven't seen any mention so far to a "CA bus"/CA card.
What I would do now was identify all cables, signal flow (follow pins), cards involved in this process and draw a high-level block diagram. This way it would be easier to identify how each piece is connected, the order they appear, and how the signal flows through, providing a good overall picture.
Cheers,
Artur
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Hi,
I assembled a couple of documents to show how Ultimation is setup on my 5K console.
Most of it is taken from the cable / connector pinout documentation.
I also attached a part if the schematics for the logic boards that shows, how the signals from the faders are handled.
Does this give more of the necessary information ?
Matt
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Wow.
Nice.
There seem to be a computer bypass jumper.
I just had a quick look though.
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ya, that's true - it's one central jumper on the back of the console and you can operate the whole thing without the computer.
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Nice !
by the way, fyi, the computer send/return circuit is identical to what's in the SL506/508 fader. (At first glance, but I'm pretty certain about it. I'll double check when i get home this afternoon though).
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Hi Matt,
This is very good work! Congratulations! This definitely sheds some light into the entire system. :D
It's curious the see how SSL was able to hide all the moving fader details behind the standard VCA S14 interface.This doesn't happen with the 4/6/8k ultimation, since SSL decided to move much of the fader control into the digital CA BUS.
All the cards you listed (which only exist on the 5000) seem to translate the standard interface to all the necessary voltages and control of the moving fader, making it like a "black box" input/output approach, from the computer perspective.
From the information you shared, it seems like if you plug this into any VCA interface it should work, except CUT automation which is done on a separate ribbon (S544).
Being the CUT information in a separate ribbon, can reveal that the gain structure of the control voltage might be different, at least the ceiling. While on the 4/6/8k ultimation the CUT is 100% handled by the digital CA bus, the VCA version is handled with a control voltage >= 7.5v. With this, one can see that the VCA console voltages go from 0-7.5-10v, while the Ultimation only goes from 0-5v (no cut control voltage exists).
What I suspect is that 5000 is no different, although it uses a similar VCA console approach the control voltage didn't allowed for automatic CUT control, hence a separate ribbon. To make this clear what I would now check, is what are the following control voltages:
- Fader fully up, fader fully down, fader fully up+cut, fader fully down+cut. I would also check what is the CV voltage for the cut ribbon, is it a simple 5v (enable) - 0v (disable) ?
I am also curious to know if the 5000 Ultimation is purely a motorized fader which controls the VCA amp, or it's like the 4/6/8k ultimation which allows for non-VCA (motors on) and VCA (motors off). Can you clarify?
I am also curious, since my knowledge of the 5000 is null, what are the function for the other fader buttons? could you elaborate on their function?
Finally, just wanted to mention that although we are looking at the fader automation, I can imagine there are other aspects of the console one wants to control in the computer right? Total Recall? What's up with the pans?
PS: in the future it would rock to have the user+service manuals of the 5000 fully scanned! ;)
Great work!
Cheers,
Artur
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Hi Artur,
This is very good work! Congratulations! This definitely sheds some light into the entire system. :D
Glad you like it .... I've been learning with this as well since i didn't use the automation yet.
...... seem to translate the standard interface to all the necessary voltages and control of the moving fader, making it like a "black box" input/output approach, from the computer perspective.
.... it seems like if you plug this into any VCA interface it should work.......
That's what I hoped
...... To make this clear what I would now check, is what are the following control voltages:
- Fader fully up, fader fully down, fader fully up+cut, fader fully down+cut. I would also check what is the CV voltage for the cut ribbon, is it a simple 5v (enable) - 0v (disable) ?
ok - this will take some time since I have to re-assemble the parts I pulled off and the ones I want to add ..... but I am motivated since I get feedback here - thx btw.
I am also curious to know if the 5000 Ultimation is purely a motorized fader which controls the VCA amp, or it's like the 4/6/8k ultimation which allows for non-VCA (motors on) and VCA (motors off). Can you clarify?
To me it looks like it is like that.
I can't see any audio signal passing the fader - at least not for Ultimation.
I am also curious, since my knowledge of the 5000 is null, what are the function for the other fader buttons? could you elaborate on their function?
To give you an overview of what kind of faders are available on a 5k see the attached document which is an excerpt of the 'user manual' ....
The Ultimation faders (SL518 (Channel) and SL538 (VCA group) are not shown, only mentioned on page 70)
Finally, just wanted to mention that although we are looking at the fader automation, I can imagine there are other aspects of the console one wants to control in the computer right? Total Recall? What's up with the pans?
Definitely .... there's a separate Total Recall Computer which is already using MIDI to scan the settings of each switch, the faders and the pots.
My goal is to control a DAW (to a certain extent) from the console ... like 'record arm' 'record safe' and such as well as the transport.
I don't think I'll be using my EQs to control the SSL channel strip plugin though :-) .....
Don't think it's an easy task to control the pans - I am not that much into electronics (though I am working on that).
Helterbelter might be someone who can probably shed some light on that.
PS: in the future it would rock to have the user+service manuals of the 5000 fully scanned! ;)
Oh - it's only about 1 mtr on the shelf (if that's enough) .... and a lot of it is A3 schematics
And I'd like to see that for the 4k/6k/8k as well :-)
We'll see what comes up.
Matt
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I think Artur is referring to the programmable filmjoystickpanners. Which i don't have of course, so I don't know the precise details, but from what I understood, is that it's somewhat similar to the SL570 graphic eq system : a controller in the desk, with the audiocards located in an external rack, consisting of lineamps with VCAs (and in case of the SL570 also filters).
So, for each panner 8 audiolines with 8 CVs.
The Sl597 channel panners "only" have TR/IR.
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One thing, and this actually pretty important : The logic voltages are different in the 5k when compared to the other series desks :
Logic Hi = -18v
Logic Lo = -24v
So, in case of the cut (which appears at the pannermodule, which also holds the faders VCA), cut is -24v and open is -18v. (although it can be switched the other way by resetting a jumper in the pannermodule : some desks have ON switches, others have CUT switches.
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I think Artur is referring to the programmable filmjoystickpanners. Which i don't have of course, so I don't know the precise details, but from what I understood, is that it's somewhat similar to the SL570 graphic eq system : a controller in the desk, with the audiocards located in an external rack, consisting of lineamps with VCAs (and in case of the SL570 also filters).
So, for each panner 8 audiolines with 8 CVs.
That's exactly the way they built it.
There's one audio input signal going from the patchbay to the external rack.
8 VCA values come back depending on the position of the joystick.
These are routed to the joystick panner module in the console surface and routed from there to the 7.1 output busses.
The joystick position data themselves leave the console via MIDI (proprietary stream) to the IPI (Intelligent Peripheral Interface) which communicates with the computer (S14E again) and the joystick panner logic cards in the external rack.
So if it was possible to 'emulate' the joystick MIDI data to the IPI it should be possible to also automate the joystick - if the necessary logic cards are available
The SL597 channel panners "only" have TR/IR.
Would there be a way to 'send' the voltages that the pan pot is causing to the SL597 (or SL527) module from an outside ?
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Voltages from the pots ? No, these handle audio, except for the 100klin gang which is for the TR.
....Although I don't exactly understand what you mean.....
Or do you mean from the filmpannerjoystick to the 507/527/597 panners ? Also not possible. Unless you want to fit a VCA circuit or a motorpot with a load of additional electronics, but that'd be madness.
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ok - I understand .... not possible unless a complete change .... motorpots is too much a hassle .... thx
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I am also curious to know if the 5000 Ultimation is purely a motorized fader which controls the VCA amp, or it's like the 4/6/8k ultimation which allows for non-VCA (motors on) and VCA (motors off). Can you clarify?
Are you referring to whether the motors are controlled, and that DC taken from the taper is used to directly control the VCA ? I don't think this is the case. If you take a look at the schematic Matt posted in the same post as the diagram, you see that the CV from the fader comes in at 17a, and that later on the computersend and return is connected at 3a and 2b.
By the way, now I also see the bypass and CA high connection..... Just below the Fader In point.
And, as said, it's -18v high, and -24v lo.
I am also curious, since my knowledge of the 5000 is null, what are the function for the other fader buttons? could you elaborate on their function?
usually, it's :
AFL
PFL
Set (that's for the routing, and for assigning the DCgroups)
status
not sure this is also the case with the faders from Matt, but I'm sure he'll rectify this within minutes ;)
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ok ... it took 30 minutes until I had a chance to read my mail again :-)
That's right .... and, in addition, as you can see in my pic post of the faders (http://www.musik-scheune.de/pub/sslmixed/SL518_Top_lowres.jpg) there are 3 LEDs for automation.
On the VCA group faders there is also a button to solo isolate the whole assigned group.
Btw - using the set switch you can also solo isolate each single fader .... but it must not be in a VCA group to be solo isolated on itself.
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I'd like to get back on this one :
I once had the idea to use a behringer cybermix for adding faderautomation on my 5k from the DAW. But this needs quite a bit of finetuning. I once managed to drive the cybermix through midi from Cubase, but there's more stuff needed to get it all up and running..... Obviously, an additional circuit using an opamp is needed to convert the CV values of the CM to the values needed for the 5k, but this is not a real problem.....
With what you know so far about the Ultimation .... what's the difference in CV that is needed from the CM to the Ultimation send / return ?
Maybe a CM is an easy (and pretty cheap as well) way to (volume-)automate at least 32 channels ......
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Hi,
I think at this moment it would be important to know exactly what is the voltage ranges for the VCA control voltages.
To be honest, this system is much more similar with the 4/6/8k VCA consoles than with the Ultimation, despite having motorized faders. ;)
Cheers,
Artur
PS: by the way, if necessary we have all the service manuals scanned for the 4000 consoles.
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What I am still not sure about is, if the CV is all I need and the existing circurity will take care about driving the motor - to know that, I have too less knowledge about what's happening in the circuit.
As said, I will take out my multimeter as soon as I have re-assembled everything.
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I was just planning to check the voltages that come from the computersend, hahaha.
(Edit : I just did : 5 to 0 volts, just like the 4k/6k/8k stuff !)
As a reply to the Cybermix :
First I need to make curve drawings to see the differences in CV between the CM and th 5k. I've written down the CVs from the cybermix last saturday, for +10, 0, -5, -10, etcetera.
But it's not as easy as you'd think, there's quite a lot that needs to be done to get it working.
-it needs a sysexcommand through midi after powering it up. CMs are stackable through midi, but the first one can only be controlled through the serial port, from the cybermix software which is really old and ugly. So, if you want to use it through midi only, you'd have to tell the CM that it's the second one in line. Hence the sysex command. Not a real problem of course, this sysex command is easy to capture, I captured it before , no reason why I shouldn't be able to do it again.
By the way, with the cybermix software you can't use a controller, so I want to be able to use it without the CM software anyway.
The midistuff itself : just notes for the channels, and velocity for CV.
-a VST or midimapper thing has to be made. For me this is a real problem. a Midimapperdevice thingy is doable, a VST not.
-conversion of working CVs. This could be easy, this could be hard. Not sure which it'll be. The range that's sent to the CMs VCAs is really small : 0v(10dB) to 0,8v (all the way down). The range is one thing, I'm a bit more concerned about the curve. could be easy or not. Probably a case of breadboarding an opamp and experimenting with voltagedividers. (I'm no electronics expert either, I'm just an experienced DIYer )
But, back to the 509/518 motorfaderschematic shown here :
http://forum.sslmixed.com/index.php?topic=928.msg6054#msg6054
I just compared it to the SL506 faderCV circuit : The CV circuitry is EXACTLY identical, with the exception that theres a tap off for the motorcontrol.
So, this also answers Arturs question : The motor follows the CV from the computer parallel to the CV sent to the VCA.
And another thing interesting : the 506 fader schematic also has a CA bus noted, so, the normal non-motor automation probably also makes use of the CA bus. But I can't figure out the rest, as I don't have any computerstuff in my console.
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I was just planning to check the voltages that come from the computersend, hahaha.
(Edit : I just did : 5 to 0 volts, just like the 4k/6k/8k stuff !)
wow - great ... so I don't have to do it - thx
The motor follows the CV from the computer parallel to the CV sent to the VCA.
sounds very promising .....
As a reply to the Cybermix :
Maybe this one should go into a different thread ?
But it doesn't sound like a project that can be done easily
And one more thing :
I'm no electronics expert either, I'm just an experienced DIYer
From my point of view, you are an expert :-)
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This,
But, back to the 509/518 motorfaderschematic shown here :
http://forum.sslmixed.com/index.php?topic=928.msg6054#msg6054
I just compared it to the SL506 faderCV circuit : The CV circuitry is EXACTLY identical, with the exception that theres a tap off for the motorcontrol.
And this :
I was just planning to check the voltages that come from the computersend, hahaha.
(Edit : I just did : 5 to 0 volts, just like the 4k/6k/8k stuff !)
This is the best news for the threadstarter : as far as I can see, Pelle's system for automation should be fairly easily adaptable.
The cybermix is a project of my own. I just went a bit offtopic, sorry for that... As soon as it gets really interesting, then I'll start a new thread for it :)
I'm actually just following this thread out of interest. I don't have a single part of the TR/IR system in my console. As a matter of fact, I even have removed the 2855007 chips (TR chips) from many modules. So, I have not much to win here, but I find it interesting anyway.
Pelle, Artur, in case I just add noise instead of contributing here, just let me know !
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If the standard VCA configured computer works right of the bat there must be a bypass jumper involved. Otherwise it will not work without computer send-return round trip.
There should also be a fairly big psu for the motors somewhere. Those old faders are pretty hungry. Maybe someone talked about that already, too lazy to scan the thread.
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Yes, a bypass jumper is there - it's on the back of the desk on the 'master' multiplexer card which delivers this information to all other multiplexer cards (there's one multiplexer card per 8 channels).
And yes again - the faders have a separate power supply but it's only for the driving the motors (+12V / -12V).
The one I have is for up to 10 bays.
The logic board is driven by the 'standard' power supply.
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Ok. So the bypass is a logic controlled switch of some sort?
Anyway. If this is a mod jumper to make it work without computer it needs to be removed to get computer access.
And, if it's like the standard console the switch between tr and fader auto is handled by the S31 connector. Pin MPX.
Maybe 5K is different and the multiplexer and auto works simultaneously.
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I know you guys already mentioned that the logic inside the console operates at -24 / -18 volts. But I would like to make sure the same levels are interfaced via the CUTs interface with the computer and that the logic isn't instead converted to a i.e.: 0-5v voltage (which would make more sense from the computer's perspective).
I ask this, because currently the max voltage the SSLMIxed system currently handles is 24v, and it is single rail. This voltage is then converted by each card to the necessary audio and logic +/- rails.
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I can't clarify the computercuts, because in my console I have simply jumpered the cuts sends to returns. So I don't have the interface. Matt must check this. I guess it uses optocouplers or something like that for the conversion.
But the fader dc voltages are measured between the console's 0v and the fader's computersend (which in my case also is jumpered to return).
The 0v mentioned is the audio ground of the console.
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Looking at the schematics (see attachments) for the panner modules (SL507 - mono / SL597 - film) my thinking is, that a CUT is +17V or something like ... maybe someone more into electronics can confirm.
The CUT is sent/received from/to there - which now gives a clue why the S544 is on the back of every bucket.
Regarding the multiplexer thingy :
I guess this is something completely different than on the 4k/6k/8k consoles.
It's mainly used for the IR (Instant Reset) which I tried to explain already : you can store and recall up to 79 'scenes' (switch and routing settings, and only these) by keying in 2 numbers and hit 'enter'
The module used for that is the SL581 - I attached an overview of the multiplexing scenario from the docs.
TR (Total Recall) is also 'enabled' with that module but requires an extra computer.
This computer uses the MIDI interface built into the 581 module to communicate with the desk.
So when it comes to TR the sole function of the 581 module is to provide a communication path - afaik.
(Note to myself : get that thing up and running to check the voltages ....)
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gosh, you're right. Well, it's not +17 volts, but it's not -18v/-24v either. It's 10v. It's transformed internally to the -18/-24v .
I noticed the bypass/ CA high bus on the 509/518 schemo, so I assumed this was the mute bus (assuming is never good, shame on me !). This however is -18/-24v.
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Hi,
I also confirm it's 10v. Voltage is brought down by the resistor divider and then clamped down to 10v by the zenner diode. This makes it within range of what our system can provide.
Regarding the SSLMixed Computer potential future support here's what I conclude so far:
Since the connection IDC for CUTS has a different size, the I/O card for the cuts would have also to be different, although it could be a much simpler card electronically speaking. Simple electronics to bring down 10v to 5v and vice-versa, and then it would seamlessly interface with any 5v MCU (we use atmega AVR).
The analog I/O card, at this point seems to be 99% compatible. Not fully because the CUTs enable/detect are managed in hardware. Anyways, if it confirms the CV range is 0-5v, one could use the same card just with a firmware option not to handle cuts voltages. Since the Input would never see a voltage higher than 5v, I suppose it would work seamlessly.
Since we would need double the cards (because of the cuts) and real-state usage, the system would support a max of 8*2 cards, which would give a max of 64+1 I/O. Is this enough for 5000?
If not, I guess it's also possible to have double capacity on the CUTs I/O card, by having 2xIDC connectors side by side (I believe the size allows for it). This would then allow for a max configuration of 80+1 I/O (10 cards) + 96 CUT I/O (6 cards)
No TR would be supported.
PS: is there any keyboard/transport on the 5000 to interface?
Cheers,
Artur
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Hi Artur,
yes, there's also a keyboard/transport to interface.
Here's a link to the Computer Block and Bus structure which may help : SSL Computer Block and Bus Structure (http://www.musik-scheune.de/pub/sslmixed/SSL_Computer_Block_and_Bus_Structure.PDF)
The keyboard doesn't look like mine though ... I have a keyboard splitted into 2 parts - but I am pretty sure (another guess) the keyboard interfaces are the same.
One difference I noticed is that the 4k keyboard has a 50 pin connector whereas mine has a 20-pin connector.
Internally, the buscard to 'arrange' the cabling to the computer cards has the 50-pin cable labelled 'keyboard' from the buscard to the 'keyboard and VDU interface'.
My cable is called S95E and has the following pinout :
1 - SWLP 5
2 - Led Common
3 - SWLP 4
4 - Switch common
5 - SWLP 3
6 - SW 5 N.O.
7 - SWLP 2
8 - Not Used
9 - SWLP 1
10 - Not Used
11 - SW 5 N.C.
12 - Not Used
13 - SW 4 N.C.
14 - SW 4 N.O.
15 - SW 3 N.C.
16 - SW 3 N.O.
17 - SW 2 N.C.
18 - SW 2 N.O.
19 - SW 1 N.C.
20 - SW 1 N.O.
Whatever all this means ......
Can't seem to find my scanned computer docs at the moment :-(
Matt
Edit : oh - btw ... thanks for pointing out the SSLMixed Computer potential and for starting to think about supporting the 5k as well.
64+1 I/O is sufficient (at the moment :-) ) .... there might be ideas to increase that but ... well ... time will show :-)
-
outch .... S95E is wrong ... it's S595 ...... pinout as follows :
1 - +12V
2 - Bleep Tone
3 - -12V
4 - 0V
5 - Pulse
6 - 0V
7 - Data B1
8 - 0V
9 - Data B2
10 - 0V
11 - Data B3
12 - 0V
13 - Data B4
14 - 0V
15 - Data B5
16 - 0V
17 - Data B6
18 - 0V
19 - Data B7
20 - 0V
Sorry for the confusion
Matt
-
Hi Matt,
Seems like a typical ASCII 7-bit keyboard.
Well, anyways this would have to be a different interface as well, since it handles differently than the 4/6/8k consoles I suppose.
Can you snap some close up photos of the keyboard and transport please?
Cheers,
Artur
-
Hi Artur,
here we go ... hope it's enough detail.
Tell me, if you need something more detailed.
The cable you see is going to the other half of the keyboard
Cheers
Matt
-
ah! great this is perfect! :D
Interesting the keyboard is exactly the same!
I'll have to look into the keyboard schematics on the 4000. Maybe it's the same, and if it is we can support it also! ;)
thanks!
Cheers,
Artur