SSlmixed.com Forum
XK-System (community project) => Research => Topic started by: Artur D'Assumpção on April 05, 2014, 09:29:46 PM
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Hi guys,
We need your help to understand if the design of the 5000 console under the hood is the same/similar/compatible has with the 4000/6000s?
The 5000 has the channel strip broke in modules (much like the old Neves), what leds be to suspect that the backbone and cards might be totally different. But I might be totally wrong here...
(http://d3714895.u57.gohsphere.com/rc/gearx/ssl5000_sm.jpg)
In terms of the SSLMixing Computer we are trying to assess if under the hood the electronics are compatible with the 4000s/6000s so we can use the same computer design to support this console. If yes, does make any sense in supporting it at all?
Comments are appreciated. Thanks for your support!
Cheers,
Artur
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The computer service manual suggests a different setup to the 4k
In this case I think fader and cuts are brought over on different cables.
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The computer service manual suggests a different setup to the 4k
In this case I think fader and cuts are brought over on different cables.
Sintech,
Could be this a case for the computer to have FADER and CUTS connector? So it supports the 5000 different design?
This brings a problem, if the design that different we might not be able to support with the SSLMixed Computer. Do you think this would be a show stopper? From what I understand the 5000 wasn't really made for music and it's a totally different system. The only way to support it (if the design is somewhat compatible) is to have a different I/O card for the SSL 5000 bays.
Please let me know your opinion,
Cheers,
Artur
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Most 5k's are chopped for modules.
The reality is, 5k is pretty dead in the water in terms of music,.. and film just went digital.
I would exclude it for the sake of ease.
(sorry 5k owners)
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Yeah, Andy's got it dead right. There is no point in a new computer system being adapted for use with the 5K. Like live consoles over recent years, the film and broadcast world have gradually changed to digital consoles. Just notice the amount and cheap price of 1/4" GPO type patchbays on the market as these industries need these analog systems less and less (which also means I'm almost becoming redundant as well as I muck about with bits of twin screen cable, not fibre optic stuff!).
The SSL 5K was one of the reasons I left SSL as I was heavily involved with that from about late 1985. Every one was different and not straight forward at all. Apart from the number of channels, the configuration varied hugely as well. Some just had 2 sections between fader and meters, others up to 4 and it was mainly aimed at the film and broadcast markets. SSL sold quite a lot to very well known companies like Lucas Film and the BBC but I can't actually remember any recording consoles being made even though that may have happened.
The console PCB's and cabling are different like you state and most modules are just used these days in stand alone racks so, NO POINT in supporting 5K consoles really (again, sorry 5k owners like Andy mentioned!).
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Hi Andy and Jim,
This is why we really need the help and input of the entire community. Your help and knowledge is invaluable, thanks guys! :D I am always learning from you, and the bits and pieces of history that Jim throws out here and there is really the cherry on top of the cake! ;)
So, for the sake of sanity and easy of the project the SL 5000 support is now officially dropped.
I consider this topic CLOSED. :D
Cheers,
Artur
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Sorry guys - disagree (yes, I am a 5K owner .... ),
first of all - it was a little quick for this topic to be considered closed - not half a day if I count it right.
I don't think the computer for the 5K is that much different from the Ultimation computer for the 4K.
Looking at the "SL 4000 Series Console Installation Guide" I see that the back is the same (!).
Here's a pic :
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l196/infoservie24matt/SSL%20GPlus%20Computer%20Disk%20Drives/Computer_Back_zps3d3b6c8f.jpg)
And here's a pic from the SL 4000 Serries Console Installation manual :
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l196/infoservie24matt/SSL%20GPlus%20Computer%20Disk%20Drives/4K_Computer_Back_zps32292fe5.jpg)
Looks much the same, doesn't it ?
Looking further at the 'board numbers', I find, that they have pretty similar numbers, like this
Board 4000K Install guide 5K Computer manual
Bus Driver Card 622121E1 82E121
Analog Input Card 622041E1 82E41
These are only 2 examples - others 'match' the same.
So, before we completely drop the 5K, I'd like to have someone having a service manual for the 4K computer may post some schematics of the boards inside the 4K computer to compare them with what I have here.
I am asking to compare some of the drawing numbers (DRG.NO) and compare them to them of the 5K.
Here is some information on the 5K Ultimation computer :
It's a G-Series computer (I actually do own the G+ Ulktimation)
SSL calls it : SL691G
The block diagram drawing is called : T0691G.41
Drawing of the analog input cards is : T82041.71.2 (E2 version)
Drawing of tape machine interface and clock is : T82043.71
Drawing of the Keyboard and VDU interface is : T82044.72
I don't have pics of the actual boards in the computer handy but will shoot some soon to post them here and to check if it's the same as for the 4K computer (maybe others as well).
Please don't get me wrong here,I just want to make sure that everyone knows what we are talking about.
It's not the console - it's the computer.
And I am pretty sure the computer ist 'the same' besides the total recall option which, btw, is completely based on MIDI on the 5K (lucky me ..... ).
Like jimfixit said : the PCB and cabling of the console itself are much different to the 4K (at least that's what I guess from the 4K install manual).
But, as shown above and unless someone proves me wrong, the computer, especially the G+ Ultimation computer, should be the same.
A side note on the 5K :
I don't think this console deserves it's bad reputation.
It's much more flexible but therefore also more complicated to understand and service.
I don't know who of the ones having bad words for it ever worked on one.
Couple of questions remain :
what do you consider a 'made for audio' console (sintech) ?
Is the sound of all the films that were mixed on a 5K bad ?
Have you ever heard a song mixed on a 5K ?
Does 'film and broadcast' mean it's 1/4" patchbays (mine has Bantam btw.).
Anyway - I am glad to know that someone here has knowledge about the 5K (jimfixit....) and I will try to support the development of the 5K computer since I believe it's not that different.
If I am lucky, it is the same and all these discussions are obsolete.
We'll see how it works out.
Cheers,
Matt
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Hi Matt,
You're right I shouldn't have CLOSED this topic that quick. I just didn't want to flood people since I am requesting from the community a bit much at this stage. That was my bad and for that I am sorry. The thread is remain open for discussion (as any other) and we will debate as long as needed on this, we have time. No decision is definitive.
Now regarding the 5K issue.
From what I understand from the computer itself the SL691G supported the 5000 as it supported the other consoles. You might need some different computer cards to support the 5k architecture and mainly, voltages for the VCAs and Faders, but also the Ultimation does.
Here's the big problem as I currently see it:
If the 5K I/O interface is that different from the others (as I suspect it is) that implies the design of completely new I/O boards. It's not a software issue, but rather a hardware one. For the 4k/6k and 8K we have an I/O module for VCAs only consoles and an I/O for Ultimation. This is true both for Bay cards, and Center Section cards. This is double effort in reverse engineering, hardware design and software implementation.
What eases this process is that the 4K,6K and 8K all share the same console architecture (with very few modifications) under the hood. So it's doable to use the same I/O modules for the 3 consoles. This doesn't happen with the 5k, either for the channel strip and center section.
The first thing that catches my eye is the fact that the CUTS are sent separately from the main S14 cable. That would mean we would need to have one more IDC socket and ADC capacity to be able to connect these. Also this is a clue that perhaps the S14 cable was re purposed and the 50 wires weren't enough and they had to add an extra bus to cope with all signals. Also the fader system seems to be totally different, and this would mean more reverse to do.
Also the different console configurations and customization made scares me a little bit. Since we don't have enough consoles in our user base to be able to understand the several configuration I can imagine that any solution could have the risk to not work on all consoles. This could be a nightmare and a big burden to maintain.
Another difficulty is the lack of systems and documentation regarding the 5k for the developers to test the prototypes and designs.
That's why I think at this stage we should not even think about on the 5K, since our hands are already full with lots of stuff for the 4K,6K and 8k.
But as a project coordinator I'm not letting go the 5k support if I see it is justifiable and our community user base shows interest.
What I would suggest, since this is an open project, is that at some stage a 5K owner would take over the I/O card and Center Card design compatible with our system (all the specifications and interfaces will be documented). With this we would add the support to the software and the 5K would become supported.
cheers,
Artur
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Hi Artur,
thanks for clarifying that.
I was not aware, that the 4/6/8K don't have extra cuts.
The backplane looks the same, so I was expecting it - probably too fast :-)
I found something that definitely clarifies the difference :
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l196/infoservie24matt/SL691G_Computer_Card_Layout_zps7a9f4a41.jpg)
So I proved myself wrong :( ........ but this will mean, that I am out to some extent.
I do have a lot of information about the 5K series, so if someone is willing to help with the hardware (whichI definitely can't), I am happy to share that documentation.
I think the are regions where these consoles match (i.e. the monitor I can attach ;D).
Anyway, I will follow this beautiful forum (and add some 5K content here and there).
Thanks
Matt
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Hi Matt,
Thanks for the info. As I suspected there were quite some differences. At this point this could do more harm than good to the future of the SSLMixed computer project. We have to give small baby steps and possibly the future cold include the 5k, but at this point that would be an overkill to design new hardware.
Anyways, in the future new cards could be done if we have the support, the documentations and enough testers to justify this.
And please take into consideration that I am only talking on behalf of the SSL Mixed Computer project, not the SSLMixed Forum. You'll find great help and information for your console here as well you can share all your know-how! :D
Cheers,
Artur
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At this point this could do more harm than good to the future of the SSLMixed computer project. We have to give small baby steps and possibly the future cold include the 5k, but at this point that would be an overkill to design new hardware.
Ya - I think that'll be the case if you also include the 5K
What do you think - would it make sense to open up a 5K 'project' on it's own since it's so much different from the other SSL consoles ?
Regards,
Matt
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I personally think not. You'd be redoing lots of stuff that will be already done and took many man-hours and thinking process, designing, developing and testing.
The way we are designing the system it will be modular and as we're designing the 4K/6K and 8K I/O cards, on a later stage, once the interfaces are stable and documented, one can easily make a new card to support the 5K I/O. After that, the software would have to be added the support for the 5K configuration.
If we have all the documentation, and where we can test it I believe it is doable. But it my opinion it only makes sense if there's is an enough user base to support it and justify the effort.
Even if the 5K sub-project doesn't have the enough support, since this will be an open project one could always do themselves these cards on their own and add the support to the software.
Cheers,
Artur
At least, that's the plan :D
Cheers,
Artur
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Hi Matt
Sorry that Andy and I voted no to support a new computer replacement. It's just that the priority should probably be given to the 4/6K users as there are many more consoles to make the development worthwhile to start with. Maybe after that is done, some attention could be given to the 5K if there is a market!
To address and clarify some of your points:
1 Bad reputation?: Having been involved with the build of them from the start, I knew they were a pain in the butt to make and test (after talking with various engineers at SSL at the time).
2 More flexible and complicated?: As above
3 Bad words?: I worked on many of them from the start, although in a non technical role.
4 Bad film sound?: Most likely not as a lot of big, mainly US film companies bought them.
5 Song mixed on 5K?: Never heard one but there must be some surely?
6 Film and broadcast 1/4" patchbays?: Most were 1/4" but I left SSL in December 1987 so maybe more were Bantam after that. Even when I did some work back at SSL in 1988, they were 1/4" as well for some film consoles I helped make.
7 5K knowledge: My knowledge is mostly based on the manufacture of these, that's all.
8 Support development of 5K: You may be right and it is encouraging to note that the 5K computer was roughly the same as other consoles after that. I left before the 8 and 9k came along so I am ignorant to some extent even though I have worked on some since and got asked to work at SSL for a while when the largest SSL ever made (9K 120 channels) was being constructed for a private studio in Brunei (the whole project got cancelled in the end).
I hope I've answered some questions and clarified some points. I see that Artur has already responded to you as well regarding the computer support for the 5K. Hopefully, it can be looked at and incorporated into the new computer design at some point.
Hope this helps a bit and regards from Jim Lassen
PS: Maybe, as I think Artur suggested, this topic about new computer support for the 5K could be moved somewhere else.
Mattia, Andy and I have discussed the 5K users several times during the past 2 years so, perhaps now is the time to separate it out, especially as the forum has got bigger.
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Hi Artur,
probably I didn't tell it the right way.
I personally think not. You'd be redoing lots of stuff that will be already done and took many man-hours and thinking process, designing, developing and testing.
I didn't mean a separate computer project for the 5K but to make a dedicated place here in the forum for the 5K owners.
So that people who are not interested in the 5K (and I guess that are most of the readers) don't have to read posts about it.
Regards,
Matt
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Hi Matt,
I think that's something we can definitely think on a later stage. I'd be happy to see a place where we could get all the documentation and technical details on the 5k gathered.
I am prepping a Wiki for the project and forum in general which is a good place to start organizing this type of documentation. I will announce soon.
Cheers,
Artur
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Hi Jim,
Sorry that Andy and I voted no to support a new computer replacement. It's just that the priority should probably be given to the 4/6K users as there are many more consoles to make the development worthwhile to start with. Maybe after that is done, some attention could be given to the 5K if there is a market!
I'm fine with that - so no sweat.
Everyone has it's own opinion based on the experience he has had with these consoles.
I just wanted to throw in a word for the 5K series which, from my own personal experience, isn't that bad a beast :-)
It's 'different' than what is known to most of the 4K/6K owners - since these are considered 'audio' consoles whereas the 5K is, as was said here before, mostly film and broadcast.
It has a totally different approach and was a great step into the digital control of a desk - again, my personal opinion.
And, in broadcast (live) situations, when a channel (or even just a part of the channel) fails, you can't call a technician to drop in and repair something - you'd need immediate replacement of the failing component while you're still online and the rest of the desk is working.
When I got it, I had to read a lot of the technical information that came with it to (not even now fully) understand how it's working from a technical point of view.
Handling (routing, recording, mixing) is the same as for an audio console - it's just done differently.
But you know better than I do since you were part of the manufacturing back then.
I also do have these impressions when it comes to things where I was part of the 'builder' crew ..... and some things of these I wouldn't even want to touch today :-)
Thanks anyway for getting back on my points - I don't want to make this an endless discussion about liking this or that more than the other.
These 2 I'd like to look a little closer at :
7 5K knowledge: My knowledge is mostly based on the manufacture of these, that's all.
8 Support development of 5K: You may be right and it is encouraging to note that the 5K computer was roughly the same as other consoles after that. I left before the 8 and 9k came along so I am ignorant to some extent even though I have worked on some since and got asked to work at SSL for a while when the largest SSL ever made (9K 120 channels) was being constructed for a private studio in Brunei (the whole project got cancelled in the end).
So you're one that knows the 5K really from under the hood !
Do you happen to know where I can get some of the spare parts other that the locations we all know (these, I already contacted) ?
Like, I am trying to get a latching switch for the VCA group faders but, even knowing the number I am looking for, couldn't find yet.
I hope I've answered some questions and clarified some points. I see that Artur has already responded to you as well regarding the computer support for the 5K. Hopefully, it can be looked at and incorporated into the new computer design at some point.
Yes you did - thanks.
And I just learned something new - that's what this forum is also all about, I guess.
Hope this helps a bit and regards from Jim Lassen
Funny, I just found out the we have been in contact already - must have been around 2010 - I have a directory with your name on my drive :-)
PS: Maybe, as I think Artur suggested, this topic about new computer support for the 5K could be moved somewhere else.
Mattia, Andy and I have discussed the 5K users several times during the past 2 years so, perhaps now is the time to separate it out, especially as the forum has got bigger.
I meanwhile agree :-)
Regards,
Matt
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Hi Matt
Oh dear, looks like I'm being quoted loads of times so I guess I'll have to respond somehow!
The 5K was (still is?) fine, but as it had many different formats, types and configurations, it was a pain for SSL to manufacture from a commercial and efficient point of view and because of this, there were loads of problems for all of us coming to terms with it in the early years.
Most of the design engineers who worked on the 4/6 consoles also contributed to the 5K so the sound quality would have been similar. Although I was working on the 5K for a few years after it was first thought of, I was mainly just involved in the overall process and mostly getting the cassettes (as they were called, not modules) into the production line from the prototype stage.
I never actually built a frame whilst working for SSL but Colin Sanders asked me to come back to build a one off, heavily customised console at Begbroke after I became self employed. Experienced frame builders there couldn't deal with it and I had no direct experience of frame building before but, that was okay as I could start from scratch without being confused with set wiring plans. After a few weeks, it became too much as there was such a lot of information to absorb but, luckily enough, some parts were late arriving and in the two weeks that followed, I was able to get a grip with the whole thing and figure out what went where.
So, yes, I know the 5K from under the hood as you mentioned but decades have passed since then and the memory fades somewhat!
Spare parts: Mmm, no idea really. Whilst working at SSL, I could have had access to all that purchasing info but didn't realise at the time how valuable it would be once leaving (and not the moral thing to do either). A lot of the 5K parts were very different to the 4/6K consoles (switches for instance) and I was just bogged down trying to get those mothers built at the time as there was so much pressure.
I think the fader switch you are searching for is a green and white one from memory but I may be wrong. The 4/6k's used Highland versions which were different.
We have been in contact already! Wow, big brother is watching over us ever since 2010!
Regards from Jim Lassen (www.profcon.co.uk). Also on FACEBOOK (http://www.facebook.com/pages/ProfCon-wwwprofconcouk-Professional-Connections-Jim-Lassen/371183312969924?ref=hl/)
PS: I have loads of the 56 way Edac type free socket connectors available if you need any. I bought them for Focusrite consoles, all of which I also constructed, but they stopped production. I also know the SSL pinouts for these 5K versions.
Again, this 5K stuff should be in a separate menu (Mattia and Andy: We have discussed this a few times before!)
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Hi Jim,
Oh dear, looks like I'm being quoted loads of times so I guess I'll have to respond somehow!
naaa ...... 8)
Thanks for the information - quite interesting - so there maybe occasions when I will ask you something about it .... in the then existing 5K menu
We have been in contact already! Wow, big brother is watching over us ever since 2010!
well ... I'm afraid, this memory will never fade. Which is good for me since mine is fading as well.
Regards from Jim Lassen (www.profcon.co.uk). Also on FACEBOOK (http://www.facebook.com/pages/ProfCon-wwwprofconcouk-Professional-Connections-Jim-Lassen/371183312969924?ref=hl/)
PS: I have loads of the 56 way Edac type free socket connectors available if you need any. I bought them for Focusrite consoles, all of which I also constructed, but they stopped production. I also know the SSL pinouts for these 5K versions.
ya - thanks for the link .... lots of interesting stuff there .... I better call you for more information
Just yesterday, I was looking at some of my unused EDAC cables and connectors.
But the de-pinning tool is pretty expensive as is the crimping tool (would you rent that probably ?).
But this belongs to the wiring menu I think
Cheers,
Matt
P.S: I'll try to call them cassettes in the future .......