Author Topic: Patchbay & grounding  (Read 2522 times)

tlmaen

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Re: Patchbay & grounding
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2022, 10:19:57 PM »
Channel inserts aren't balanced. Sorry. And 651 inserts aren't properly balanced.

The G series Service Manual says the inserts are balanced...
611G upper Buscards Pin 4/5, 7/8

True for E Series as well?

T

tlmaen

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Re: Patchbay & grounding
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2022, 10:35:52 PM »
that is a very good paper, you can also see the paper at the Rane website
https://www.ranecommercial.com/kb_article.php?article=2107
https://www.ranecommercial.com/kb_article.php?article=2127

Cheers
Yes, also a good resource!
But Bill Whitlock somewhat disagrees with 'the absolute best way to do it' on the Rane Page.
He recommends connecting the Shield at the Driver side (See 3.6).
In that section he talks about grounding, mesh ground and hybrid ground.
Really interesting.

T

amillar

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Re: Patchbay & grounding
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2022, 12:38:37 PM »
Basically, the shields should only be connected at only one end of the wire (except mic lines).
Yes because it will prevent ground loops, no because it allows radio frequency pickup! It's the real pain with grounding arrangements in studios. If possible you should always connect the screen right the way through, which is fine when running to equipment with a ground lift switch but causes problems when it doesn't. Or when it does have a ground lift switch but it has a horrible switch mode supply inside which puts noise between the mains ground and the signal ground anyway.

So yes we often do end up breaking the screen, but we really shouldn't. Particularly as studios get ever noisier at the RF end with every piece of kit having switch mode supplies and a few processors chuntering away in it.

There is a kludgy solution to break the screen but put a small capacitor (say around 1nF) across the break, so it conducts RF but doesn't conduct 50Hz/60Hz.

The real problem is that if equipment (desks and outboard) were designed / built for this to all work properly then no-one would be available to afford it. (Since leaving the audio industry a lot of my time has been spent with people who solve grounding and shielding problems all day for other industries, in fact I've long been involved with writing international standards on this stuff which is a thankless and horrible  task.) What we want is the performance of medical equipment, which is really, really good at managing this stuff (it has to be!), but is eye-wateringly expensive. So we're left with trying to connect to the dodgy "classic" reverb, or a single coil unshielded Strat...which would make a professional grounding and shielding engineer say "you don't want to be doing that"...sorry, yes we do! So back to the rules of thumb and keep trying things until it works...

By the way, re ground spikes, and mesh in a lake etc, it's rarely the ground to earth that's a problem unless you're right next to a radio transmitter or you're running a studio across several different buildings. The whole studio can float up and down, and that's absolutely fine. The challenge is to either stop the noise generated in the studio from circulating in the studio at all, or to make sure it doesn't circulate through anything critical by keeping loops and aerials short, or by cancelling out any noise that does circulate by balancing.

Just seen the post about "which end to disconnect": any two audio EMC engineers will give you two different answers on this (this has been argued about at least back to the 1980s, and probably longer). An instrumentation EMC engineer will say as above "don't cut it at all". I'd say the actual answer is "it all depends" - on where the RF source is that you're protecting against, and which piece of equipment has the best RF ground. Which you won't know until you try. As above, grounding and shielding is a very specialist subject, people who do it that's all they do. So take advice from people who've got good experience, but don't treat it as a "rule" unless they actually are EMC professionals.

Cheers,

Andy

co-designer and project manager G series analogue 1987
channel strip designer J series 1992-93
design "caretaker" 4000/6000 1985-93
analogue team leader ARC/Bertha 1988-92

amillar

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Re: Patchbay & grounding
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2022, 12:44:51 PM »
Channel inserts aren't balanced. Sorry. And 651 inserts aren't properly balanced.

The G series Service Manual says the inserts are balanced...
611G upper Buscards Pin 4/5, 7/8

True for E Series as well?

T

No they aren't balanced on E or G series, the "cold" wire is connected to ground on both send and receive. If you look through the circuit diagrams for the 611 cards you will see there are no balancing amplifiers for the insert sends or returns.
co-designer and project manager G series analogue 1987
channel strip designer J series 1992-93
design "caretaker" 4000/6000 1985-93
analogue team leader ARC/Bertha 1988-92

tlmaen

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Re: Patchbay & grounding
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2022, 02:28:19 PM »

[/quote]
No they aren't balanced on E or G series, the "cold" wire is connected to ground on both send and receive. If you look through the circuit diagrams for the 611 cards you will see there are no balancing amplifiers for the insert sends or returns.
[/quote]

Ah, was wondering, because I only found it in the pin List of the Buscards, not in the Schematics...

tlmaen

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Re: Patchbay & grounding
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2022, 02:37:22 PM »
Basically, the shields should only be connected at only one end of the wire (except mic lines).
Yes because it will prevent ground loops, no because it allows radio frequency pickup! It's the real pain with grounding arrangements in studios. If possible you should always connect the screen right the way through, which is fine when running to equipment with a ground lift switch but causes problems when it doesn't. Or when it does have a ground lift switch but it has a horrible switch mode supply inside which puts noise between the mains ground and the signal ground anyway.

So yes we often do end up breaking the screen, but we really shouldn't. Particularly as studios get ever noisier at the RF end with every piece of kit having switch mode supplies and a few processors chuntering away in it.

There is a kludgy solution to break the screen but put a small capacitor (say around 1nF) across the break, so it conducts RF but doesn't conduct 50Hz/60Hz.

The real problem is that if equipment (desks and outboard) were designed / built for this to all work properly then no-one would be available to afford it. (Since leaving the audio industry a lot of my time has been spent with people who solve grounding and shielding problems all day for other industries, in fact I've long been involved with writing international standards on this stuff which is a thankless and horrible  task.) What we want is the performance of medical equipment, which is really, really good at managing this stuff (it has to be!), but is eye-wateringly expensive. So we're left with trying to connect to the dodgy "classic" reverb, or a single coil unshielded Strat...which would make a professional grounding and shielding engineer say "you don't want to be doing that"...sorry, yes we do! So back to the rules of thumb and keep trying things until it works...

By the way, re ground spikes, and mesh in a lake etc, it's rarely the ground to earth that's a problem unless you're right next to a radio transmitter or you're running a studio across several different buildings. The whole studio can float up and down, and that's absolutely fine. The challenge is to either stop the noise generated in the studio from circulating in the studio at all, or to make sure it doesn't circulate through anything critical by keeping loops and aerials short, or by cancelling out any noise that does circulate by balancing.

Just seen the post about "which end to disconnect": any two audio EMC engineers will give you two different answers on this (this has been argued about at least back to the 1980s, and probably longer). An instrumentation EMC engineer will say as above "don't cut it at all". I'd say the actual answer is "it all depends" - on where the RF source is that you're protecting against, and which piece of equipment has the best RF ground. Which you won't know until you try. As above, grounding and shielding is a very specialist subject, people who do it that's all they do. So take advice from people who've got good experience, but don't treat it as a "rule" unless they actually are EMC professionals.

Cheers,

Andy

Thanks Andy!

Another Issue I see is if you only connect one end, you will end up with unconnected shield wires, if you connect multiple devices in a a row.
Only the first Device will have a connected screen (If the pachtbay has isolated Gnds).

I will leave all of my Cables with both ends connected and see how it Performs in my Studio...

T

amillar

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Re: Patchbay & grounding
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2022, 01:59:17 PM »
Ah, was wondering, because I only found it in the pin List of the Buscards, not in the Schematics...

Yes it's a shame there was never a schematic of the 611 motherboard, it makes things like this harder to work out. The insert feed will come from the output of the input card, or from the output of the EQ card, or from the output of the dynamics card, depending on how the "Dyn to", "EQ to", and "Pre Post" switches are pressed. I don't think when the 4000 was originally designed it was fully realised how people might use the insert points - those outputs were never really designed to plug into something on the other side of the studio! Unfortunately we couldn't change it for the G series as would have involved changing the 611 motherboard, and we didn't have the time or resources to do that.

I did sort it on the 9000 though  :)
co-designer and project manager G series analogue 1987
channel strip designer J series 1992-93
design "caretaker" 4000/6000 1985-93
analogue team leader ARC/Bertha 1988-92

tlmaen

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Re: Patchbay & grounding
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2022, 09:41:44 AM »
Quote
I don't think when the 4000 was originally designed it was fully realised how people might use the insert points - those outputs were never really designed to plug into something on the other side of the studio!

Well, to insert some outboard gear... 8)

I have some 50 Lundahl Transformers laying around, for the worst case...

jimlfixit

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Re: Patchbay & grounding
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2022, 09:55:49 PM »
Hi all
Sorry but I don't have the time time to deal with all of this as it could be complicated so, bear with me here.

Basically the SSL console tech screens deal with everything going in or out of it via the Analog DL connectors as they are all screened to and from the patchbay. The bantam screens short to the metal patch front panels which are shorted to the frame and end up at the main tech ground 0BA (M6) bolt under the patchbay by the DL connector panel

Contact me for a phone call (whatsapp or whatever) so I can explain quickly on the phone as it all depends on your wiring circumstances.

I have wired many studios over 30 years or so and each one is different so, contact me about this so we can chat on a phone (not writing as I cannot type quickly!)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2022, 01:49:49 PM by jimlfixit »

tlmaen

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Re: Patchbay & grounding
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2023, 08:54:42 PM »
Channel inserts aren't balanced. Sorry. And 651 inserts aren't properly balanced.

Hi Amiliar, sorry for bothering you again with this topic...

I checked some things on my channel amplifier card and came across the 'patch return' section.
It seems like the Patch Return is fully balanced (T5).
Also the edge connector Pins 29 & 32 are connected to the upper Bus card Pins 7/8, wich is the 'Ins Return'.
Couldn't find the 'Insert Send' though

Am I wrong here...?

Best,
Tilmann

jimlfixit

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SSL grounding and 25 way D's
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2023, 04:49:53 AM »
Hi Timean
Just answered another of your questions and just seen this!! It is too late for me now so I will be brief.

I have wired both soldered patchbays and 25 way D versions and both have + and - (advantages or disadvantages). Can talk about this if you like so, contact me.

The SSL tech ground system is great and everything that goes into or out of it via the DL's is grounded by the SSL console. I have never gounded 25 way's at the other end as the SSL does it anyway and the grounds at the ProTools end have all their grounds connected anyway. I leave one screen available in case it is required at the other end but, have never had a problem.

One needs to investigate the outboard gear and look at the grounding and other wiring before making your mind up. It's a complicated subject but simple really! 110volt (or different AC power sources), DC power supplies, data and computer cables can complicate matters but it is NOT a big deal really.

Must eat and crash out now as I am so tired and it is 04:46am UK. I have some vast experience of SSL consoles (more than most) since 1980 but answering questions does NOT pay my rent and I don't have much work right now as the whole Pro-Audio industry has changed a lot over 20 years or so!

tlmaen

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Re: Patchbay & grounding
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2023, 10:32:10 AM »
Hi Jim,
I leave everything as it is. So everything is grounded at the console side.
At the Patchbay there is almost no shield connected (few exemptions...)
The rest is grounded at the Outboard gear side.
Will see how it works... (worked for 40 years)

Thanks,
Tilmann

jimlfixit

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Patchbay and why some cables are not grounded.
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2023, 04:56:03 PM »
Hi Timaen

Thanks for your comments along with those from other people. Actually I did not work on SSL console frames (4, 5, 6 , 8, G or 9K's) when I was at SSL for 7 years. I just found about them afterward I left when I installed some and worked with George Gilbert (ex SSL test engineer) enlarging consoles and then reducing them later!

I just worked on most of the external wiring and the assemblies that go into them plus some fab custom stuff (a 4 buss 688 for example as a one off ... wonder where it is now, probably in the USA with a heavily modified motherboard) and also all the new computer system (11u 691 rack plus 694 Floppy stuff, Real Time, Events, Synchroniser systems and the 696 Master Transport Selector with the SSL designer Jim Smith as they were being developed. Also worked with other SSL design engineers like Trevor Stride (688 , stereo module and 5K) and Graham Hinton (683 prog Eq) so it was an interesting time for me then.

The reason why some wires on the patch are not screened is because they go back into the SSL for channel or centre section stuff and get grounded there INSTEAD on 6 way Bicc's etc.

It's complicated but simple and avoids screening a cable at both ends. The Bicc's from the patchbay are tech grounded to the upper buscard which is grounded to the copper bar (white wire) which is linked up at the end under the DL connector panel, along with the bantam jack frames via a green wire to go to an external ground point (computer or 661 PSU etc). The 651 has it's own ground wire going to the copper bar. Hope you understand this!

On that note, the reason why there may be only one copper bar throughout the console is because the logic (Total Recall etc) stuff was not in place then so, the one copper bar was for the analogue stuff (that's my opinion anyway).

I have documented all the SSL 4 and 6K grounding system and it is on this forum somewhere but I agreed with Matt Sartori that it could be paid for to obtain access with any contributions going towards helping to pay for the upkeep of this site which is not free to publish of course.

Hope this helps from Jim Lassen in the UK and most of this is based on my memory going back for a few decades so, bear with me!