Automation System for a 5K

[matt]

What I am still not sure about is, if the CV is all I need and the existing circurity will take care about driving the motor - to know that, I have too less knowledge about what's happening in the circuit.

As said, I will take out my multimeter as soon as I have re-assembled everything.

[Helterbelter]

I was just planning to check the voltages that come from the computersend, hahaha.

(Edit : I just did : 5 to 0 volts, just like the 4k/6k/8k stuff !)

As a reply to the Cybermix :
First I need to make curve drawings to see the differences in CV between the CM and th 5k.  I've written down the CVs from the cybermix last saturday, for +10, 0, -5, -10, etcetera.
But it's not as easy as you'd think, there's quite a lot that needs to be done to get it working.
-it needs a sysexcommand through midi after powering it up. CMs are stackable through midi, but the first one can only be controlled through the serial port, from the cybermix software which is really old and ugly. So, if you want to use it through midi only, you'd have to tell the CM that it's the second one in line. Hence the sysex command. Not a real problem of course, this sysex command is easy to capture, I captured it before , no reason why I shouldn't be able to do it again.
By the way, with the cybermix software you can't use a controller, so I want to be able to use it without the CM software anyway.
The midistuff itself : just notes for the channels, and velocity for CV.
-a VST or midimapper thing has to be made. For me this is a real problem. a Midimapperdevice thingy is doable, a VST not.
-conversion of working CVs. This could be easy, this could be hard. Not sure which it'll be. The range that's sent to the CMs VCAs is really small : 0v(10dB) to 0,8v (all the way down). The range is one thing, I'm a bit more concerned about the curve. could be easy or not. Probably a case of breadboarding an opamp and experimenting with voltagedividers. (I'm no electronics expert either, I'm just an experienced DIYer )

But, back to the 509/518 motorfaderschematic shown here :
http://forum.sslmixed.com/index.php?topic=928.msg6054#msg6054

I just compared it to the SL506 faderCV circuit : The CV circuitry is EXACTLY identical, with the exception that theres a tap off for the motorcontrol.
So, this also answers Arturs question : The motor follows the CV from the computer parallel to the CV sent to the VCA.
And another thing interesting : the 506 fader schematic also has a CA bus noted, so, the normal non-motor automation probably also makes use of the CA bus. But I can't figure out the rest, as I don't have any computerstuff in my console.

[matt]

I was just planning to check the voltages that come from the computersend, hahaha.

(Edit : I just did : 5 to 0 volts, just like the 4k/6k/8k stuff !)

wow - great ... so I don't have to do it - thx

The motor follows the CV from the computer parallel to the CV sent to the VCA.

sounds very promising .....

As a reply to the Cybermix :

Maybe this one should go into a different thread ?
But it doesn't sound like a project that can be done easily

And one more thing :

I'm no electronics expert either, I'm just an experienced DIYer

From my point of view, you are an expert :-)

[Helterbelter]

This,

But, back to the 509/518 motorfaderschematic shown here :
http://forum.sslmixed.com/index.php?topic=928.msg6054#msg6054

I just compared it to the SL506 faderCV circuit : The CV circuitry is EXACTLY identical, with the exception that theres a tap off for the motorcontrol.

And this :

I was just planning to check the voltages that come from the computersend, hahaha.

(Edit : I just did : 5 to 0 volts, just like the 4k/6k/8k stuff !)

This is the best news for the threadstarter : as far as I can see, Pelle's system for automation should be fairly easily adaptable.


The cybermix is a project of my own. I just went a bit offtopic, sorry for that... As soon as it gets really interesting, then I'll start a new thread for it

I'm actually just following this thread out of interest. I don't have a single part of the TR/IR system in my console. As a matter of fact, I even have removed the 2855007 chips (TR chips)  from many modules. So, I have not much to win here, but I find it interesting anyway.

Pelle, Artur, in case I just add noise instead of contributing here, just let me know !

[PelleG]

If the standard VCA configured computer works right of the bat there must be a bypass jumper involved. Otherwise it will not work without computer send-return round trip.
There should also be a fairly big psu for the motors somewhere. Those old faders are pretty hungry. Maybe someone talked about that already, too lazy to scan the thread.

[matt]

Yes, a bypass jumper is there - it's on the back of the desk on the 'master' multiplexer card which delivers this information to all other multiplexer cards (there's one multiplexer card per 8 channels).

And yes again - the faders have a separate power supply but it's only for the driving the motors (+12V / -12V).
The one I have is for up to 10 bays.

The logic board is driven by the 'standard' power supply.

[PelleG]

Ok. So the bypass is a logic controlled switch of some sort?
Anyway. If this is a mod jumper to make it work without computer it needs to be removed to get computer access.
And, if it's like the standard console the switch between tr and fader auto is handled by the S31 connector. Pin MPX.
Maybe 5K is different and the multiplexer and auto works simultaneously.

[Artur D'Assumpção]

I know you guys already mentioned that the logic inside the console operates at -24 / -18 volts. But I would like to make sure the same levels are interfaced via the CUTs interface with the computer and that the logic isn't instead converted to a i.e.: 0-5v voltage (which would make more sense from the computer's perspective).

I ask this, because currently the max voltage the SSLMIxed system currently handles is 24v, and it is single rail. This voltage is then converted by each card to the necessary audio and logic +/- rails.   

[Helterbelter]

I can't clarify the computercuts, because in my console I have simply jumpered the cuts sends to returns. So I don't have the interface. Matt must check this. I guess it uses optocouplers or something like that for the conversion.

But the fader dc voltages are measured between the console's 0v and the fader's computersend (which in my case also is jumpered to return).
The 0v mentioned is the audio ground of the console.

[matt]

Looking at the schematics (see attachments) for the panner modules (SL507 - mono / SL597 - film) my thinking is, that a CUT is +17V or something like ... maybe someone more into electronics can confirm.
The CUT is sent/received from/to there - which now gives a clue why the S544 is on the back of every bucket.

Regarding the multiplexer thingy :
I guess this is something completely different than on the 4k/6k/8k consoles.
It's mainly used for the IR (Instant Reset) which I tried to explain already : you can store and recall up to 79 'scenes' (switch and routing settings, and only these) by keying in 2 numbers and hit 'enter'
The module used for that is the SL581 - I attached an overview of the multiplexing scenario from the docs.

TR (Total Recall) is also 'enabled' with that module but requires an extra computer.
This computer uses the MIDI interface built into the 581 module to communicate with the desk.
So when it comes to TR the sole function of the 581 module is to provide a communication path - afaik.

(Note to myself : get that thing up and running to check the voltages ....)

[Helterbelter]

gosh, you're right. Well, it's not +17 volts, but it's not -18v/-24v either. It's 10v. It's transformed internally to the -18/-24v .

I noticed the bypass/ CA high bus on the 509/518 schemo, so I assumed this was the mute bus (assuming is never good, shame on me !). This however is -18/-24v.

[Artur D'Assumpção]

Hi,

I also confirm it's 10v. Voltage is brought down by the resistor divider and then clamped down to 10v by the zenner diode. This makes it within range of what our system can provide.

Regarding the SSLMixed Computer potential future support here's what I conclude so far:

Since the connection IDC for CUTS has a different size, the I/O card for the cuts would have also to be different, although it could be a much simpler card electronically speaking. Simple electronics to bring down 10v to 5v and vice-versa, and then it would seamlessly interface with any 5v MCU (we use atmega AVR).

The analog I/O card, at this point seems to be 99% compatible. Not fully because the CUTs enable/detect are managed in hardware. Anyways, if it confirms the CV range is 0-5v, one could use the same card just with a firmware option not to handle cuts voltages. Since the Input would never see a voltage higher than 5v, I suppose it would work seamlessly.

Since we would need double the cards (because of the cuts) and real-state usage, the system would support a max of  8*2 cards, which would give a max of 64+1 I/O. Is this enough for 5000?

If not, I guess it's also possible to have double capacity on the CUTs I/O card, by having 2xIDC connectors side by side (I believe the size allows for it). This would then allow for a max configuration of 80+1 I/O (10 cards) + 96 CUT I/O (6 cards)

No TR would be supported.

PS: is there any keyboard/transport on the 5000 to interface? 

Cheers,

Artur

 

[matt]

Hi Artur,

yes, there's also a keyboard/transport to interface.

Here's a link to the Computer Block and Bus structure which may help : SSL Computer Block and Bus Structure

The keyboard doesn't look like mine though ... I have a keyboard splitted into 2 parts - but I am pretty sure (another guess) the keyboard interfaces are the same.
One difference I noticed is that the 4k keyboard has a 50 pin connector whereas mine has a 20-pin connector.
Internally, the buscard to 'arrange' the cabling to the computer cards has the 50-pin cable labelled 'keyboard' from the buscard to the 'keyboard and VDU interface'.

My cable is called S95E and has the following pinout :
 1 - SWLP 5
 2 - Led Common
 3 - SWLP 4
 4 - Switch common
 5 - SWLP 3
 6 - SW 5 N.O.
 7 - SWLP 2
 8 - Not Used
 9 - SWLP 1
10 - Not Used
11 - SW 5 N.C.
12 - Not Used
13 - SW 4 N.C.
14 - SW 4 N.O.
15 - SW 3 N.C.
16 - SW 3 N.O.
17 - SW 2 N.C.
18 - SW 2 N.O.
19 - SW 1 N.C.
20 - SW 1 N.O.

Whatever all this means ......
 
Can't seem to find my scanned computer docs at the moment :-(

Matt

Edit : oh - btw ... thanks for pointing out the SSLMixed Computer potential and for starting to think about supporting the 5k as well.
64+1 I/O is sufficient (at the moment :-) ) .... there might be ideas to increase that but ... well ... time will show :-)

[matt]

outch .... S95E is wrong ... it's S595 ...... pinout as follows :

 1 - +12V
 2 - Bleep Tone
 3 - -12V
 4 - 0V
 5 - Pulse
 6 - 0V
 7 - Data B1
 8 - 0V
 9 - Data B2
10 - 0V
11 - Data B3
12 - 0V
13 - Data B4
14 - 0V
15 - Data B5
16 - 0V
17 - Data B6
18 - 0V
19 - Data B7
20 - 0V

Sorry for the confusion

Matt

[Artur D'Assumpção]

Hi Matt,

Seems like a typical ASCII 7-bit keyboard.

Well, anyways this would have to be a different interface as well, since it handles differently than the 4/6/8k consoles I suppose.

Can you snap some close up photos of the keyboard and transport please?

Cheers,

Artur