Automation System for a 5K

[PelleG]

...I don't know if this is also true for Ultimation.

No. This is how the VCA consoles use the pins. Everything is directly hard wired to the LEDs and switches.
Ultimation got a different labeling for pins 1 to 30.
The interesting thing is that that document say something about the "pan .." which is dedicated to 5K only.
So maybe the "Moving Fader Control Rack" just converts the standard VCA pins to whatever is needed for your faders.

If that's the case I guess any computer that works with a VCA desk works for you.
The 4K/6K/8K consoles switches between TR mode and Automation mode. When locked in TR mode the CV lines are blocked and used by multiplexer cards only.
I guess that's not the case for 5K since it handles recall differently.

[matt]

The 'programmable Pan Rack' (external) carries the joystick panning VCA calculation (8 channels aka 7.1) - so probably they're referring to that one.
The joysticks can be automated as well.
Actually, a little more is involved - a so-called IPI (Intelligent Peripheral Interface)
And there's a S14E from the IPI to the computer as well.

So it's going like this ......

Sending information :
Joystick Module -> IPI (MIDI, data are sent when moving the joystick)
patchbay, joystick input (audio) -> programmable pan Rack (EDAC) -> IPI (S801) -> computer (S14E)

Receiving information (guess) :
Computer -> IPI (S14E) -> MIDI to pan module (?)
                    IPI -> programmable pan Rack (S801) -> patchbay, joystick outputs (EDAC) -> Joystick module (for routing to the surround channels)

I do have this as well but it's not 'running' since I am missing the long EDAC cables that deliver the calculated VCAs from the rack in the machine room to the patchbay.
What I can do is to get the rack nearer to the desk and use a shorter cable if this helps.

Primitive thinking, but : if the S14E from the programmable pan rack has the pinout from the document above, isn't it most likely that the pinout coming from the moving fader control rack is the same ?
There's nothing to see on the back of the computer that the S14E from the programmable pan rack has to use a different connector that the S14Es from the moving fader control rack.
But if I haven't this working yet, I might be mistaken here.

[PelleG]

...the pinout coming from the moving fader control rack is the same ?

I wouldn't count on it. Isn't there a pinout describing the S14E for the buckets?

You already have an automation computer?

Inside the computer the logic lines(1-30) from the S14E ports should go either to switch and LED card or an Ultimation CA bus card. Or another one we haven't seen yet.

[Artur D'Assumpção]

Hi guys,

Although I don't know much about the 5000 consoles, reading Matt's description of the cables all makes sense. The 5000 was a console with a total different approach, based on plug-in modules and not a full blown channel strip, such as the 4/6/8K series. It seems this approach restricted greatly the realstate options for the 5000. So, if on the 4000 SSL could put the VCA card near the EQ card, now that's not possible since you can opt not to install any EQ at all. With this in mind, it seems, SSL opted to offload all these common stuff which needs a place onto external racks, leaving all the console real-state for the faders and optional modules.

From what I saw on Matt's description, is has all the VCA cards + ultimation logic (352 card equivalent i suspect) and perhaps more stuff specific to the 5000. This is like the "blackbox" which converts what's going on in the console into the S14 and S544 cables. It's quite smart, specially if you know that Ultimation has also the VCA option (motors off) and it heats like a beast! I guess the card that's on the 5000 ultimation faders pertains perhaps only to the motor DC part?

One thing is clear to me, there are more controls than the 4/6/8k ultimation faders, such as the AFL/PFL buttons, Master reset, Status lock, etc... etc... This is the reason the needed to put the CUTS into the S544, simply there was no more realstate. And this must mean, that the I/O cards on the computer, are also different than the I/O cards for ultimation. I would bet on that.

I am sure these must be more things that I am not seeing at this time.

What I think it's crucial to find is if there is a CA bus also on the 5000's ultimation faders. If there is, the S14E doesn't have pins to control LEDs like the VCA consoles. This is all done via the CA bus. In attach you can check what's the pinout of the S14E cable for the 4/6/8k ultimation consoles. You should find a service manual for SL5000 ultimation system.

Cheers,

Artur

[PelleG]

..One thing is clear to me, there are more controls than the 4/6/8k ultimation faders, such as the AFL/PFL buttons, Master reset, Status lock, etc... etc... This is the reason the needed to put the CUTS into the S544..

You might be right.
There could also be the reason of not having the VCAs to do the actual cut.
I have a feeling that all those other things might not be going to the computer at all but is merely internal logic in the 5K.

It's quick to measure the pins. Check the switch lines and see if they flip logic when status button is pressed.

[matt]

...the pinout coming from the moving fader control rack is the same ?

I wouldn't count on it. Isn't there a pinout describing the S14E for the buckets?

There's no S14E going from the buckets to the computer. They all origin from the moving fader control rack

You already have an automation computer?

Yes, and I already played around with it. But I decided to put using the automation computer to the point when my desk is configured as I want it to be.
So I went through the manual and tried out this and that to check if all faders are moving and such but didn't really dive deeper into it.

Inside the computer the logic lines(1-30) from the S14E ports should go either to switch and LED card or an Ultimation CA bus card. Or another one we haven't seen yet.

I'll check that - gotta make access to the computer back easier to open it up and check where the lines are leading to.

Some more general information :
The modules are spread over the surface comparable to a spreadsheet : every module has it's own 'cell' address.
This is necessary for the instant reset (IR) where you can quickly change all switches and routing information.
To do this, there's a module in the console (SL581) with an internal storage of the settings.
You are able to save 79 settings between which you can switch from one 'scene' to another pretty easily.
In addition to that you have a so-called routing module which is the addressee of the 'set' switch from the fader to 'enable' the channel for routing.
No automation computer is needed for that.

Getting hands on a service manual for the Ultimation is pretty hard I guess.
I do have the computer service manual - maybe it also holds the Ultimation information although I didn't see it mentioned specifically.
And as of now, I also didn't go through the service manual that much.

[Artur D'Assumpção]

Hi Pelle,

CA Return - = 0v

The ENABLE line (balanced by 75176 IC on the bus card) in conjunction with the READ/WRITE allows for selection, and read/write operations.

Cheers,

Artur

[matt]

Hi Artur,

I found this in my computer service manual (SL691G) - see attachment.

Does this shed some light on the question if there's a CA computer for the 5k as well ?

It also gives a clue about the pinouts for the boards in the computer and their meaning.
The mentioned S36 and S37 connectors are sitting on a buscard that 'collects' the pins from the S14E and S44 to route them to the LEDs & Switches or I/O cards.

Cheers,
Matt

[Artur D'Assumpção]

Hi Matt,

The think is, on the VCA consoles the LED & Switches card, is the one responsible to drive the LEDs & Switches (pretty obvious) of the faders. This card sources the power and controls the LEDs, not the faders themselves. The control pins are hardwired to the front panel connector via the S14 connector.

The Ultimation is a totally different. Who powers the LEDs and switches is the 352 card on each fader package. The computer then controls these via the CA digital bus (8 bits).

With this difference cleared out here's what I depict from the documentation you showed.

Earlier on the thread I send the difference on computer card configuration either for 4/6/8k and the 5k consoles. Clearly the 5k also have a L&S card fitted on the computer, but I can't really tell if this is only valid for VCA fader version of the 5000. This information typically one comes on the motorized faders service manual. On the 4/6/8k this is a separate manual, since it was an optional system you could buy later and retro fit. This manual shows which cards you need to replace on the computer, such as the Analog I/O and the Leds and Switches. Is this something you can find in your documentation?

On your documentation what I see a mention to the Leds&Switches card and also a CA addr pin, which only says it's the computer (Computer Automation) address pin, not a CA digital bus.

I am afraid we could be led wrong with these if we are looking into the schematics/configuration of a VCA 5000 console, while yours is motorized (ultimation). You need to make sure by searching the documentation that these connections and addressing are related to a motorized console. Also it can happen that the way SSL designed it, it's really indifferent and the same setup serves both?

Can you check this?

Cheers,

Artur

[Helterbelter]

This thread can now better be called "5k ultimation", hahaha.

But, I do have a question about the non-moving fader VCA automation : The computersend and return CV voltage : what's the range, and is the voltage linear ? Yesterday I took out the Cybermix again, now I want to look again if it's useful for modification so I can use it with my SL506 and 507/527 setup. This is one of the long-long-term projects I have on the backburner, but.... well.... thank you guys for bringing this into my head again......

hahaha.

[Artur D'Assumpção]

Hi,

Sorry you are right, we digressed from VCA into motorized faders. Maybe would be better to create 2 separate topics?

If it's like the VCA 4/6/8k consoles, you have the following CV configuration:

- 0v -> fader fully up
- 5v -> fader fully down
- 7.5v -> CUT

Cheers,

Artur

[Helterbelter]

Thanks !

I'd be surprised if it would be different, but on the other hand.... the computercut has its own dedicated pins. It's S524 on the pannermodules.....

I'lI'll double check it this weekend, but now I have at least something to start with

Oh, one thing : Is the voltage curve linear ?
In other words, 2.5v would be the same value as the fader in the middle ? (that's about -10dB)

[PelleG]

It's not linear.

Please don't split up the thread. Even if not everything is spot on topic it's close enough.


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[matt]

i Artur,

thanks for your thoughts on this.

My computer is configured exactly the way that is mentioned in the differences sheet as 5000 with more than 64 I/O
This way I can be sure that the 2 sheets I just posted are referring to the cards I have installed (numbers match as well).
I opened up the computer back and it shows, that the different cables coming in (faders, cuts) are split so that the faders signals reach the faders cars (I/O) and the lights&switches signals reach the lights&switches card(s).

The 109 board I mentioned earlier is called the 'motorised fader logic board'.
Since the routing is done through the set switch and a routing module (other than with the 4k where you have the routing switches on top of the channel strip) someone must take care of the set switch if the console is operating without the computer - the configuration I am running at the moment to reduce the possible misbehavior in case there's something wrong on the computer side. This is done by the 109 card.

....... more to come .....

[Artur D'Assumpção]

Hi Matt,

Ok, so it seems the way the 5000 architecture was thought is a bit different than the 4/6/8k consoles and we shouldn't make any assumptions. On the 5000 you still have the L&S card and also you have a separate controller for the motorized faders. I haven't seen any mention so far to a "CA bus"/CA card. 

What I would do now was identify all cables, signal flow (follow pins), cards involved in this process and draw a high-level block diagram. This way it would be easier to identify how each piece is connected, the order they appear, and how the signal flows through, providing a good overall picture.

Cheers,

Artur