SSlmixed.com Forum
Tech discussion => 4K,6K,8K Series => Topic started by: TheMixfactoryNYC on April 21, 2015, 05:22:09 AM
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I've tried switching out the IC's (T4 and T11) on the 82E21 card, but the console will not switch out of Record/Broadcast mode(record mode on 4000G) on the console.
Remix mode or on a standard 4000G Mix mode will not switch over, even though the lamps are on.
I've noticed the routing doesn't switch over in Remix mode, only when you select the bounce.
Is it possible that its frozen in status lock on Broadcast mode?
Any other ideas to try?
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The switch could be broken inside but feel fine, also I have seen diodes, fet's and transistor's short in the logic
that will lock every thing up. If you have not figured it out I can start digging through the manual, I have
worked on a few 8K's and they can be no fun. N
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When I hit the remix switch I can hear it click over, but the status doesn't change.
The tape returns won't switch down to the large VCA faders and the routing doesn't automatically assign to the small faders.
The top row of status switches all seem to be working, but the rec mode switch doesn't seem to do anything.
On the row under remix mode and status lock don't seem to work either.
I checked all diodes and resistors and none are blown. I had 1 Transistor totally blow, the VCA to monitor Transistor and i've switched that.
But even the AFL to monitor, nor the PFL to monitor seem to work either.
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Are all the voltages correct on the back plane edge connectors to those cards? Maybe a
blown trace? are the switches outputting the correct voltages?
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These are the voltages i've measured for 82E21 card:
Record mode:
Pin 10 Record Status switch:+12.52v
Pin 16 Buss: +18.56v
Pin 17 Record Lamp: +18v
Pin 18 Record Lamp: -18.34v
Remix mode:
Pin 12 Status switch: +12.25v
Pin 14 Bus : 11v
Pin 15 Lamp: .0v
Broadcast mode:
Pin 1 Broadcast switch: 11.63v
Pin 3 Broadcast Buss: 8.47v
Pin 4 Broadcast Lamp: 13.26v
Pin 49 :11.56v
Pin 51: 18.75v
Pin 52: -18.56v
So on the Mix and Broadcast Buss I am getting lower voltages than normal. Also on the mix lamp I am getting no voltage even though the mix switch is on.
I am going to check out the transistors TR1, TR2 for the mix bus or just replace them entirely.
Not sure on the rest though.
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So i checked out the Transistors TR1 and TR2 transistors and they are fine.
Not sure on where to proceed next.
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Ok reviewed the schematic and there are some points that don't match the labeling for 8E21 card.
This will obviously make it harder.
For example the Broadcast status switch while labeled Pin 1, 3, and 4 for the 8E21 card are really Master input flip Pin 1 and Pin 4.
Pin 10 i believe is +18v for the Broadcast switch but its labeled Record switch in the CF82E21 55 way connector labeling.
I do think though that Pin 3 is the Broadcast Buss input.
What i do see on the SL651G switch and logic wiring schematic is that the status switches when not engaged you get +11v and when engaged you get +18v.
I gather when you measure the input busses they should measure +18v, but is that before or after the switch is engaged?
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For the MIX, Record, Replay (or renames off) The voltage swing is from: +18v active (logic Hi) to +11v inactive (logic low)
So that's what needs to be happening at the buses to the modules.
If you have voltages off, you can probe in reverse from the bus to the 21 card
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But aren't the busses on the 21 card?
Or are you referring to the busses on the channel? Or something between the 21 card and the channels?
On the schematic for the 21 card between the busses and the switches there isn't much and I've checked all of the resistors, diodes and transistors. There are 2 small caps on the mix buss and T1 which is a 4042 IC.
Now could a bad lamp be bringing down the voltage to a buss?
Some of the switches don't have the LED lamps in them but they are working just the same.
Lastly the confusion is because on a 4000G Record mode is Broadcast mode on an 8000GB, Replay is record mode on an 8000GB and Mix mode is Remix mode on a 8000GB.
So on the 82E21 description, Record is really Replay but there is no Replay buss on the 55 connector. But as we know on a 4000G Replay is just Record with the tape monitors on the small faders.
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I meant the Status Buses, 'Status Mix Bus' Pin 60 on the upper Bus card.. fed from the 21 card
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That's what i figured.
I'll check it out when i get to studio.
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Ok i noticed alot of weird issues.
First when i select record mode it turns on the Remix lamp and selects that switch as well.
When i select the Broadcast switch, it gives +18v on the Remix buss.
When I select the record switch it gives +18v on the Broadcast buss.
When I select remix I get +18v on Broadcast buss.
Its like the Logic and Status switches are all over the place.
The Fader Reverse is only outputting 14.48v in record mode when engaged.
Master input flip is only out putting 13.3v when engaged.
The bounce button outputs 18v when engaged, but when not its only putting ov instead of -18v.
So it seems there are issues either with the Logic, switches or ?
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Pulled out some of the cards on the 651 to check out the Status switches and it seems 5 of the 8 are bad.
But the Remix switch is good.
So is it possible that 5 bad status switches including the record, broadcast, bounce, routing from input and Status lock would pull down the voltage so bad and screw up the logic?
I guess ii will disconnect them and see.
Also is there a tool to make it easier to remove the AO switches besides a pair of pliers and a screw driver?lol
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Rechecked and dissambled status switches and they are all good.
So its not the switches.
Now i am at my wits end in what to try next.
I've noticed the way the logic works, if any of the switches are not connected you can't switch statuses. It defaults to just record mode.
All of the main status switches go to a 4042 Quad gate and i've replaced that to no avail.
Any ideas?
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I meant the Status Buses, 'Status Mix Bus' Pin 60 on the upper Bus card.. fed from the 21 card
Ok checked status busses on channel extender.
When in Remix mode pin 60 only gives me 9.9v.
When in record mode Record bus pin 63 gives me 18,89v
When in Broadcast mode pin 52 which is also the pin for Master channel flip gives me 18.17v and pin 60 gives me 18.84v?
It seems there is something getting crossed on the 8E21 card or on the switches, but I have no idea what it could be.
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Rechecked and dissambled status switches and they are all good.
So its not the switches.
Now i am at my wits end in what to try next.
I've noticed the way the logic works, if any of the switches are not connected you can't switch statuses. It defaults to just record mode.
All of the main status switches go to a 4042 Quad gate and i've replaced that to no avail.
Any ideas?
In trying to figure how the 4042 quad clocked latch works:
The outputs Q and Q either latch or follow the data input depending on the clock level which is programmed by the polarity input. For polarity e 0; the information present at the data input is transferred to Q and Q during 0 clock level; and for polarity e 1, the transfer occurs during the 1 clock level. When a clock transition occurs( positive for polarity e 0 and negative for polarity e 1), the information present at the input during the clock transition is
retained at the outputs until an opposite clock transition occurs.
Ok so studying the schematic, the 4042 want to see 15v and 18V max.
The supply voltage is pin 16, the input voltage in pin 8 and polarity is pin 5.
Outputs are 9,3,12,15
Inputs 7,4,13,14
According to the schematic all of the switches are tapped to the polarity pin, supply voltage and input voltage of the 4042.
Now the question is why on the broadcast switch do we get (2) of the latches to open up instead of 1 and why on the remix switch do i get none?
In theory could the broadcast be sending a +/- polarity so fast that its switching between both simultaneously? Also according to the schematic some how the broadcast switch would have to be crossing both inputs which I don't see how it would be possible.
Also for the remix switch to only be able to let 9v through means that its either limited before the 4042 or after?
Before the 4042 its a 15K resistor and a small 10n cap.
We do know after i get 18v on the mix bus but only with the broadcast switch.
Trying to narrow this hard is a mind bender.lol
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Yeah, looks like somethings corded in the Logic as you point out.
At this point I'd use an IC tester, to check all the chips.. a cheap £27 off eBay, and works great.
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Switches bounce and produce spurious output, when they get old they bounce more. So normally you have to have some debounce protection.
But with a latch, once its latched, thats it.
I would look at the waveform on the switch with a scope and see how bouncy it is. If its a lot, change the switch.
I'm sure SSL would have allowed for a degree of switch bounce. I haven't looked at the exact circuit so I could be wrong.
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Yeah, looks like somethings corded in the Logic as you point out.
At this point I'd use an IC tester, to check all the chips.. a cheap £27 off eBay, and works great.
I switched out the T1 4042 and a couple of the ICs from an older 82E21 card that I purchased and the same problems happen. I also purchased a whole bunch of extra 4011 and 4013s in case they are needed.
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Switches bounce and produce spurious output, when they get old they bounce more. So normally you have to have some debounce protection.
But with a latch, once its latched, thats it.
I would look at the waveform on the switch with a scope and see how bouncy it is. If its a lot, change the switch.
I'm sure SSL would have allowed for a degree of switch bounce. I haven't looked at the exact circuit so I could be wrong.
I noticed that the all of the status switches have a cap and a diode soldered to them and from checking them they all seem good.
I will try to grab a switch somewhere else on the console to test.
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Does anyone know off hand what is the EAO equivalent for a SP momentary 33DMD118 switch ?
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Have got a tonne of momentary EOA switches in Grey if you need some.
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Yeah i can use some.
Sent you a P.M.
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Ok here is the update.
I switched out the ReMix switch and now i get 11v across the switch.
Great.
Bad news i still can't get it to turn on the Mix status bus.
It still at -18v for the lamp and 0V for the bus.
I now am not sure what else to try. If i have to switch out the mix bus and mix lamp transistors at this point i will do it. I've changed out all of the 4011, 4013 and the T1 4042 logic chips. All of the diodes and resistors between the mix switch and lamp/bus all check out fine. According to the schematic all that is left are the transistors and some small caps.
Has anyone ever encountered this before? Any solutions or ideas of what else to try?
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Another update, switched out all status momentary switches for new ones.
I still only get 10V for the mix status buss when i remix is selected.
When i select the Broadcast status i get 19V on the mix status bus.
Again I am not sure what else to try.
I do notice that when i switch to the remix status, the routing lights want to turn on but they don't. Same as the Broadcast mode. they blink momentarily and then nothing.
In the past when you select Remix status the routing lights would be selected for the small faders automatically.
Is this a clue for anyone what the problem could be?
At this point I am baffled and am backed up on work because of this problem.
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Just tried 2 different 4042 IC chips.
One i pulled out of an old CF82E21 card and it would keep the Remix switch selected even when i selected Record or Broadcast. Also when I selected Broadcast it would select the remix switch. Another i noticed is the Master input flip switch was easier to select. When I switched to the current one I had before that phenomena went away, but i still got the +19v mix buss when I selected the Broadcast switch.
So then its possible that the 4042 is the problem, but what are the chances that 2 different ICs behave in a similar manner?
I since ordered some brand new 4042 ICs and when i get them will try it and see if maybe it will finally fix the problem.
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You might also consider disconnecting S3E ribbon to first the left and then the right of center
section feeding the buckets, I did not have time to read the whole thread so I'm not sure
this is relevant, but perhaps a bad logic board in a module is locking things up. Also I have
had fets short on the status card that does master flip, (21?) It happens when people try to
hot swap a module.
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You might also consider disconnecting S3E ribbon to first the left and then the right of center
section feeding the buckets, I did not have time to read the whole thread so I'm not sure
this is relevant, but perhaps a bad logic board in a module is locking things up. Also I have
had fets short on the status card that does master flip, (21?) It happens when people try to
hot swap a module.
I've tried to get the remix switch to work without the buckets on and switch is still not changing status.
The card that does the master flip is the piggy back card PCB 82E21 Sub card or 82e198-01 ISSAB.
I switched out the 4013 just in case but all of the transistors, diodes and resistors check out on the piggy back card.
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Just tried 2 different 4042 IC chips.
Ok an update.
Tried a brand new 4042 IC Latch and still get the same problem.
Now this time I tried the 82E21 card without the piggy back card and something different happened. Now in Remix(Mix) mode I get the routing to the small faders, but I still can't get the tape returns to feed the large faders. I still can't get the mix bus to give me +18v.
And still when I select broadcast status, I get the +19v on the mix bus .
Also there is no difference when i switch between Record and Mix.
Does anyone have any ideas why this could be and what else to try? Also does anyone know in MIX mode should the VCA to monitor buss be giving +18V without selecting the switch? Because in mix mode I am not getting the +18v in the VCA to monitor buss.
How does the board know to default to mix mode when it powers up? Also I am not running the computer as the 8000GB don't come with the cards so could that be an issue? I have all of the terminators in the VCA slots under the board.
I would really appreciate any help. I've changed out every IC on the 82E21 card. All the resisitors and Diodes check out fine as well as the Transistors.
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Just tried 2 different 4042 IC chips.
Ok an update.
Tried a brand new 4042 IC Latch and still get the same problem.
Now this time I tried the 82E21 card without the piggy back card and something different happened. Now in Remix(Mix) mode I get the routing to the small faders, but I still can't get the tape returns to feed the large faders. I still can't get the mix bus to give me +18v.
And still when I select broadcast status, I get the +19v on the mix bus .
Also there is no difference when i switch between Record and Mix.
Does anyone have any ideas why this could be and what else to try? Also does anyone know in MIX mode should the VCA to monitor buss be giving +18V without selecting the switch? Because in mix mode I am not getting the +18v in the VCA to monitor buss.
How does the board know to default to mix mode when it powers up? Also I am not running the computer as the 8000GB don't come with the cards so could that be an issue? I have all of the terminators in the VCA slots under the board.
I would really appreciate any help. I've changed out every IC on the 82E21 card. All the resisitors and Diodes check out fine as well as the Transistors.
Ok, i've learned a couple of things today.
First of all I pulled out all the cards to the 651 and I checked the actual wires from the 651 to the switches and I learned something new. The pins on the 651 do not correspond to what i actually thought were the pinouts on the 82E21 card. Actually they are different and reading the schematic I think i understand.
The pins for the mix switch do not correspond to the mix lamp, mix switch and mix bus, its actually to the Replay switch, Replay lamp and splits off to the VCA to monitor bus from the output of T4. Aahhhh!
Now we are getting somewhere. Same goes for the broadcast switches and record switches.
In the schematic the Record switch is really the mix switch(schematic) and the Broadcast switch is the record switch(schematic).
Ok on the schematic once the signal leaves the T4 IC its splits to the Replay Lamp and then to a 4.7Kohm resistor then to the VCA to monitor bus. So the problem has to be somewhere in that signal flow.
I measured the Replay Lamp and its giving me +13V and I am pretty sure from measuring it before the VCA to monitor bus is not giving out 18V.
This goes all the way back to the original problem that caused all this, the Transistor for the VCA to monitor bus completed melted and pulled some of the traces off the 82E21 card. I replaced that transistor and redid the traces with wire. So now for some reason i am still not getting the VCA to monitor to output 18v or in Remix mode to get the tape returns to feed the large fader.
I guess what i can do next is replace the transistor to the Replay lamp and recheck the Transistor for the VCA to monitor bus, but I've checked that out a million times.
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So first of all I want to say that yesterday i finally solved the issue of not getting the SSL to turn on the Remix status mode. Success!!
So if anyone with an 8000GB ever encounters this problem there are a couple of things you need to know how the console works internally;
1) Because the 8000GB is a hybrid console, the traditional 4000 or 6000 schematic doesn't necessarily translate.
What do I mean by this?
The normal status swtiches on a 4K are Record, Replay, Mix, Status lock on the bottom and Master channel flip, VCA's to monitors, quad cues, Auto cue on top.
And on the schematic they are labeled as so. Each switch, lamp and bus all correspond to the labels on the 82E21 card.
Because the 8000GB is a hybrid console and reconfigured for broadcast, there are a lot of new modes so SSL re-labled the switches but not in the schematic. So on the 8000GB the main status switch are Record, Remix, Broadcast and Status lock. On top you have Master channel flip, reverse fader, Bounce, Routing from input. Ok.
So on the schematic the Record status switch on the 8000Gb corresponds to the Record switch, lamp and bus on the schematic right.
The Remix switch that you would think would be the mix switch on the schematic is now the replay switch, with the replay lamp. Now there is no replay bus but if you study the schematic the bus for the Remix status switch is the VCA to monitor bus!
Broadcast status is not the broadcast/master flip on the schematic but the mix switch, mix lamp and mix status bus!!
Confusing enough for you?
Now the Master input channel flip, Reverse fader, Bounce and routing to input have all been off loaded to a 82E21 piggy back card. So if you have problems with those statuses you have to check the 82E21 piggy back card.
Keep this in mind if you replace the main 82E21 card, because the 8000GB 82E21 card is slightly modified to accommodate the 82E21 piggy back card.
2) The switches and pin outs 651 on 8000GB:
Main status switches;
Record- switch is 10, lamp 17, bus 16
Remix - switch 13, lamp 18, bus is 21
Broadcast - switch 12, lamp 15, bus 14
If they are working properly when you engage them you should see: +11v for the switch, -18v for the lamp and +18v for the bus.
(If you take Andy suggestion of working backwards, in Remix mode you wouldn't see +18v on pin 60 on the channel because it is for the status mix bus or the Broadcast status. You have to check the VCA to monitor bus which is pin 57).
By the way how i fixed the Remix status was changing the BC212L TR7 and TR8 for the VCA to monitor bus. Originally i redid the TR7 wiring on the 82E21 card that got totally destroyed when TR7 melted and i assumed that TR8 was fine even though it measured ok. But when I took it apart, it was clear there was damage to the TR8 wiring as well. Redid that side and voila! Remix status or Replay on the schematic is back!
Now I am going to go mix something finally and fix some of the problem channels as well.
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Well done that man! Errors in documentation are a real problem.
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Congrats Wil, so cool you sorted it :-)
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Great catch! ;) congratz! ;)
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Thanks fellas.
I pretty much went bald on this one, pulled out almost all of my hair trying to solve it!
One thing i will tell you is I know the 82E21 schematic/card like the back of my hand.lol
Maybe i will get it tattooed to my forehead, so every time i look in the mirror I am reminded of it. ;)
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CHEERS! another beautiful thing about the 8K's, they are all different! With different
levels of broadcastability. One of the ones I am working on is being turned into a
4K as much as possible.
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Nice Work!,
I was looking at this area in the 651 of my SSL8000GB and your posts here really help clear things up for me.
thanks for posting! I am looking into, hopefully soon
changing (in broadcast status)
multitrack routing from mono pre main pan
to multitrack routing from stereo post routing pan.
more like mix mode.
hope fully not to involved.
Best,
Roy