6000E vs 4000E Sonics

[Matt Salazar]

Any preferences/thoughts on the 6000E vs 4000E sonics?

From what I've read here, the "C" bus on the 6000 is just a bolt on to the Quad bus of the 4000.

If the extra stereo bus of the 6000 was not needed for any technical reason, would you prefer a 4000, or is it a mute point as both sound the same in the end?

I've also seen a bit of discussion on modification of the 6000 busses (discrete opamps, etc), is this a modification option unique to the 6000?

Rock On!

[Clip6]

If your looking for a console buy the one in best shape. Your not going to mod an SSL. It's fine just like it is.

Good luck on your hunt.

[waltzingbear]

the difference between them is minor, its mostly the same component boards.

as was said, the one in best shape is the best.

No, you are not going to "mod" the mix buss on an SSL. You can clean them up and restore them to like new condition, but "modding" and SSL is not going to happen. If you don't like the sound, don't get an SSL.

Cheers
Alan

[Matt Salazar]

I've owned two SSL consoles and worked on more than I can count (never a 6000 though).

I love the sound of a 4000, not interested in doing any crazy mods, but a lot of the consoles I am finding available right now are 6000. After poking around here I found threads about modifications being made to the 6000. This got me curious.

So those with 4000 and 6000 experience say the mix bus on both consoles sounds the same?

[Clip6]

Check Funky Junk, Recycled Audio and AES Pro Audio.

https://www.milocogear.com/used-gear/

Keith can build you want you want.

[jmstevens]

Hi there. I own a 6000, and the center section had been modded by Bruce Millett prior to my purchase. He told me the mod bypasses the abc busses and goes straight through, making it like a 4000. He says it opens it up. I've a/b'd it, not night and day by any means. I've mixed records both ways, as for a while I was utilizing the 3 stereo bus techniques. Then I got bored with that and starting using the modded route.  Less patching, more lazy.  It's a touch louder and it feels it has a bit more punch. Or maybe I'm just imagining that.  Wish I could give more tech talk on the matter.  The thing sounds great all the ways to me. I've attached a pic. Pressing BETTER kicks it in. Anyhoo, thought this might be relevant to the discussion.

James

[waltzingbear]

I would hesitate to call routing changes "modding"

All that can be done on the patch bay with no changes. It does shorten the path and there might be a small "clearing" of the view. I've certainly done that on some old 53 series Neve's and it can pan out.

Its easily done and shouldn't influence your purchase decision. Too many other things affect the production in more significant ways.

Cheers
Alan

[Matt Salazar]

Hi there. I own a 6000, and the center section had been modded by Bruce Millett prior to my purchase. He told me the mod bypasses the abc busses and goes straight through, making it like a 4000. He says it opens it up. I've a/b'd it, not night and day by any means. I've mixed records both ways, as for a while I was utilizing the 3 stereo bus techniques. Then I got bored with that and starting using the modded route.  Less patching, more lazy.  It's a touch louder and it feels it has a bit more punch. Or maybe I'm just imagining that.  Wish I could give more tech talk on the matter.  The thing sounds great all the ways to me. I've attached a pic. Pressing BETTER kicks it in. Anyhoo, thought this might be relevant to the discussion.

James

Hey James, this is exactly the info I was looking for. I love the "BETTER" knob...haha Thanks!

[xmax]

There are 2 types of 6000 that I know of, the first one is very rare and does not have the "688"
section just a trim for the A,B and C busses. The "26" cards (summing/compression) on these
early 6000s are also different, there are 2 26 cards that are like the 4K and 2 stereo versions.

The more common 6K uses partially populated 26 cards and the summing is done with "hybrid"
amps that fail regularly by gradually increasing distortion and noise or just burning up. This is
why lots of 6000 owners DO mod their desk to turn "A" into a 4K and adding API or similar summing
amps on B and C.

In general the 4K's have less issues than the 6K and probably sound a little cleaner. Cheers! 

[jmstevens]

Thanks for validating me Norman:) And yes, from what I was told the end result of the "mod" cannot be achieved through patching.

James

[waltzingbear]

Well, I would be interested in knowing what the difference is that can't be patched. The versions  Norm refers to are not what gets changed in the "mod" as far as I can tell.

To me it seems to be just patching out of the A buss for the final mix, what else would you be changing?

all this is complicated for me by the fact the 6K I used to take care of is now gone, as is the manual.

Cheers
Alan

[jimlfixit]

Yes Xmax, you are almost right in assuming there were two types of 688 (see note below). I can only reply from a wiring view but, when I worked at SSL (1980-87), the early ones (about 1981) were just a 682 panel size with a few cards. After that the larger rack version (designed by Trevor Stride) was used which was almost like a mini 651 with loads of connections. I worked with him on this for ages, got it into production and it seemed a complicated beast even then.

At some point, probably around 1982-3, a film client of SSL (Lucas Film perhaps?) requested a 4 buss version and I had the task of heavily modifying (from circuit diagrams) an existing 688 rack with loads of cuts and mod wires on the motherboard etc to make this happen which took me a few weeks to do.

This was the only one ever made I think and I would be very interested to know if it still exists somewhere out there.

[xmax]

The reason you can't turn a 6K into 4K via patching is the summing.
(I'm not talking about the ultra rare version with stereo 26 cards)
The summing amp is on the 26 cards on a 4K and has a discrete
LM-394 "super matched" pair of transistors feeding some 5534's

The regular common version 6K uses hybrid amps to handle the
summing and they are different and subjectively inferior. 
And can not be patched around. 

[waltzingbear]

ah, that may be why it seemed trivial to me, I believe the 6k I attended to used the standard 26 card with the LM394 summing amps, which I have never sneezed at. Its gone now, so I cannot check.

Boy Genius,  (see comments from Norm elsewhere for elucidation)
Alan

[xmax]

Yes that would be the much rarer version of the 6K, it had 2 standard 26 cards
(with gold can VCAs) and 2 dual 26 like cards! I have only seen one of those
6K's and it's in Dearborn MI at studio A.