Author Topic: Audio dosen't route from fader  (Read 18010 times)

kilmister

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Audio dosen't route from fader
« on: September 18, 2012, 01:42:24 AM »
Hello all!

As this is my first post to the forum I would like to thank Mattia for putting this great site & forum up and running! Well done Mister!

Ok, we have 4056 G+ Special Edition with Ultimation in our studio. The thing is it's not passing audio through when computer is shutted down. When computer goes down it should change audio route from VCA's to fader. I've cheked what happens with VCA/Fader routing switch (IC2, SSM242) in the VCA card. Well, it does not change state when I hit 'MO ex' in computer. I measured voltage from resistor R39 (vca/fader control line) and it stays in 5V all the time - even when computer is shutted down - and thus logic dosen't change state.

I'm totally lost why our console is behaving like this and asking some help to sort this issue out.

Thanks in advance,
Paavo
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StefanNowak

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Re: Audio dosen't route from fader
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2012, 07:30:39 AM »
With the VCA based consoles the computer must be on at all times.

If not you'll need to get jumpers for the i/o panels underneath your patchbay. Not sure how this works with Ultimation consoles but I would imagine the computer is just as integrated as with the VCA boards.

Stef.


Dan Korneff

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Re: Audio dosen't route from fader
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2012, 02:15:19 PM »
I'll have to double check, but I think my G+ wont pass audio (or passes audio at full blast) without the computer on.
SSL made a "computer bypass" box for the use of their consoles without computers.

kilmister

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Re: Audio dosen't route from fader
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2012, 03:48:27 PM »
Thanks for your input guys.

Refering to my Service Manuals console should pass audio when computer is shutted down. Computer sends strobe signal to Fader PSU and if PSU dosen't get this signal it drives +5V rail down to 0 volt for few seconds. This should reset logics and audio should be routed through the fader. Theres also a relay which routes Master VCA control voltage straight back to console. I've checked power line goes down and the relay works just as described in manuals.

What makes this issue really strange is the fact that 'MO ex' command dosen't change logics state and thus audio route from VCA to fader neither. In another words audio is going through the VCA's all the time regardless are motors on or off. I'm assuming if I can find reason to this audio will pass through the faders also when computed is shutted down.

All the best,
Paavo
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 03:57:24 PM by kilmister »
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kilmister

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Re: Audio dosen't route from fader
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2012, 08:28:13 AM »
Hi!

I scanned schematics of vca board and fader. Please find them:
http://diy.5by5.fi/ssl4k/ultimation_vca_board_schematic.pdf
http://diy.5by5.fi/ssl4k/ultimation_fader_board_schematic.pdf

And also short descrption about CA fail:
http://diy.5by5.fi/ssl4k/ultimation_psu_ca_description.pdf

I suck with TTL. If anyone could point me how to learn read logics to get better understanding of the circuits above, that would be very nice.

All the best,
Paavo

p.s. A3 size scanner would be a so cool...
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 08:32:12 AM by kilmister »
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brewery

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Re: Audio dosen't route from fader
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2012, 11:37:11 AM »
ultimation only passes audio without the computer being on when the group and master fader ribbon is looped through the fader psu, and even then it's a bit sketchy.
i think it was more of an good idea than an actual working system, and most places don't even bother with the ribbon.
this is why lots of techs will say it's normal that the ca fail led is on, but that's only if you don't loop the ribbon through.

both ultimation psus will always have to be on, the audio path in the fader is active and will need power.

also on vca systems you can just power up a few buckets plus computer and the desk is working as it should. with ultimation not so much..


kilmister

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Re: Audio dosen't route from fader
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2012, 01:53:18 PM »
I have all psu's on, ribbon connected throught the fader psu and the CA fail line seems to work as it should. PSU does loopback only for master vca. I haven't found any reason why circuit behaves like it does :( VCA Select line from IC5 on the fader card stays high forever.
Damn, most difficult issue with the console so far.

 -Paavo
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brewery

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Re: Audio dosen't route from fader
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2012, 04:12:06 PM »
i'm afraid this is pretty normal.
like i said, all places i know gave up on the idea and just keep the computer on all the time, without the ribbon looped through.

i have two 4ks with ultimation here right now (a G+ and an E), and the G+ doesn't even have the ribbon connectors in the psu any more, just the empty cutouts in the back.

is there a reason why you want to run the desk without the computer? if you do, vca faders are the way to go.

kilmister

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Re: Audio dosen't route from fader
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2012, 05:15:41 PM »
Hmmm, feels funny that company like SSL implements something pretty simple that doesn't work at all... Just can't belive that.

My reason is simple: even the computer is very realible it will brake down at some point - nothing lasts forever. I wish to be prepared for that. If our console complitly stops working we are in deep s**t until it's up'n'running again and maintenance time for the computer is weeks easily.
On the other hand, I'm curious why audio doesn't route throught the faders even while computer and motors are on. And of course what's a difference between two paths sound wise.

-Paavo
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brewery

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Re: Audio dosen't route from fader
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2012, 06:14:44 PM »
your fader doesn't pass audio when the computer is up and running? this is of course not normal.
the console will act weird if you fire up buckets after the computer booted up already. nothing as dramatic as no audio, but some channels probably won't cut from the group cuts etc. rebooting (type 'BEGIN') usually fixes all of that.

sound wise, 'MO ON' has no vca in the circuit (but the extra audio path in the fader itself), and sounds a bit cleaner / better, at least that's what most people claim. i also find it a bit more 'direct' sounding, but those later revision vcas sound VERY transparent too.
the other reason you might hear a slight difference when you toggle between both modes is the fader alignment.
i do this at least quarter yearly, and some of them drift quite a bit.
the other weird thing is that some faders seem to be super stable throughout the whole path (not necessarily only newer ones), while others have 'problem areas', where you're lucky to get them +-1dB between vca and motor.

i think the reality is that ultimation is great when it works, but other systems, like flying faders, are a lot more sophisticated and stable.
there's also only a small handful of techs that know how to repair faulty modules.

i heard about the 'no computer' solution not really working from various ssl techs as well, peter might've even been one of them, but not sure.

if there's anybody out there who's comfortable fixing fader cards, i have around 20 faulty ones, and would be up for a 'fix one, keep one for free' deal.


kilmister

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Re: Audio dosen't route from fader
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2012, 09:59:25 PM »
Thanks for your reply brewery.
It's very much possible I got bucket down and didn't restart computer before testing vca/fader switching functionality . I'll double check that.
Still looking solution to get "no computer" way to work. Damn, they are telling it should  :o

I've managed to repair quite few of our faders. At the moment I have one witch is in pretty bad shape and broked down once again. Some tech before me has broked traces at pcb (you son of a...) and some soldering job was awful. I decided to buy replacement for it and leave it as spares. All others I've repaired are working fine. Most of the problems has been relatively simple fried switching fet kinda things. Also some logic chips has fried. I feel the faders aren't that bad to repair after all. Design is straightforward just like rest of the console. Main reason to choose SSL over Neve  8)

Brewery, are your faders VCA or Ultimation?

Yep, sound wise what your telling is exactly what I'm expecting.

-Paavo
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kilmister

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Re: Audio dosen't route from fader
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2012, 11:13:02 PM »
Brewery, are your faders VCA or Ultimation?

Oh, reading little back I can assume they are Ultimation...
Your offer is really fair and I would love to repair your faders. Where are you located?

-Paavo
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 12:13:51 AM by kilmister »
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brewery

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Re: Audio dosen't route from fader
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2012, 10:00:53 AM »
i'm in cologne, germany.
the fader cards are mostly smd mount parts, and i don't have the tools to work on them.
i'll have to go through the box and write down the faults, but i can send you a few by the end of the week if you want.


kilmister

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Re: Audio dosen't route from fader
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2012, 08:18:34 PM »
Yes they are filled with smd stuff. Exact reason why I've bought smd station.
I pm you my mail and other info.

Cheers,
Paavo
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kilmister

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Re: Audio dosen't route from fader
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2013, 02:55:44 PM »
A little update to this.
Found main "problem" why fader behaviour was a little odd. +5V at faders psu drop out time wasn't sufficient so it didn't reset logic chips, morely vice versa happend and logics was all over place. Reseting faders manually by turning PSU off for 20 seconds solved everything.

Cheers,
Paavo
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 06:01:37 PM by kilmister »
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