Buying a SSL Console

[tlmaen]

Dear SSL lovers in this Forum!

Its my first post, so I want to introduce myself a little bit.
I am a Engineer/Mixer from Germany, 20 years in Business.
I run a commercial Studio and using a 32/20/4 Neumann Console.
Its my first console and its saved from a German Broadcast Station ages ago.
Since then I expanded it to a higher channel count, added Group outs and Aux Sends.
Repaired it all the years, recapped it during the first lockdown.
Worked on a customised Motorfader System, and finally ported the lovely Preamps to the API Series 500 format (available soon…).
In 2016 me and my Business Partner build a much bigger Studio and business is growing slowly but consistent.

As my workflow is evolving constantly, specially since I added a Atmos System to my Room, I found the Console being the bottleneck in the recent years. The Neumann Console sounds fine and it served me well, but its at its technical boundaries now.
So I looked around for a console quite a bit, and the only one I could find wich has all the things that I need is a large Format analog Inline console with lots of routing possibilities.
It also has to be ‘easy’ serviceable (I do it myself), so no smd, and parts readily available.

When I started in 2002 as a intern, I learned on a SSL 9080J Console.
I loved it! Now its time to get myself a console like that…

So, here I am searching the web, reading almost any Posts in this Great Forum, trying to find answers to all my questions…

I am not sure if I need to split this in more than one Thread, so please let me know when this is too unspecific.

I am pretty close to buy a 48 CH SSL 4000 E Series from around 1980.
I read a lot of the differences between E and G series, that scared me for a while, and I couldnt decide wich one would be the right for me.
But on the other hand, my Neumann console does not have any of these functions that a SSL Console has. Not even a Solo button… So I am pretty Sure I will get along pretty well with whatever Console it will be in the end…

My Questions are so far:

- What is roughly a ok price range (€ per Channel) for a Console like this? Its not recapped, and the routing switches needs full cleaning or replacement. The Rest is working ok. It has Plasma meters wich are not all functioning (75% are ok). It has no Mix Computer, but a build in keyboard, so it was originally equipped with one. Basically it needs to be refurbished.
- What functions do exclusively rely on a mix computer (Of course all Automation and TR)? But are the VCA groups are working without a computer? Transport buttons?
- How much Electrolytic Caps are roughly in each channel? This one is an old one with some Tantals. How much are roughly the costs of recapping (per Channel/Bucket, parts only)?
- Is it possible to modify the Channels to implement Solo Isolate?
- How is the Sound of the Micpres (They have Transformers) compared to the MPs without Transformers?
- Does anyone have first hand experience with the new PSU types. There is the Atomic and the MPower System. Advantages/Disadvantages over each other?
- Would you fly over to see and test all of the functions of the console by yourself? Feels a bit weird to imagine buying a console where I only saw some Photos and the technical report from the service technician…
- Is there anything special compared to the later, post 83 E Series?
- What questions should one definitely ask prior to purchase? Special things to look at!
- What should be included in the sale, except the Console/PSU? Guarantees for anything…?
- Anything els to consider?
- Is someone regretting the purchase of a SSL Console :-) ?

Lots of questions…

I must say this is one of the nicest forums that I found. Almost all of the People here are super nice, very friendly, patient and very helpful! This is pretty rare in this big internet thingy…
Its also great to see that so many of you doing so much work to keep these consoles alive.
That convinced me even more to buy a 40 year old analog Console…

Thanks a lot!

Best,
tlmaen

[amillar]

Hi tlmaen,

Here's some answers, there are others here who will be able to answer the other questions much better than I can:

First, to a question you did not ask the SL4000 is very easy to work on. They were built by hand, and everything can be repaired by hand. A key feature of the design was that if it went wrong it had to be VERY fast to get working again.

One exception: personally I would not have plasma bargraphs, they are HORRIBLE to work on. It was difficult enough to get them working when they were new. If you do buy this one with plasmas make sure you get LOTS of spares. Or allow for the cost of replacing them with VUs.

- What functions do exclusively rely on a mix computer (Of course all Automation and TR)? But are the VCA groups are working without a computer? Transport buttons?
Yes, VCA groups and transport buttons work without the mix computer. As you say, it is only automation and TR which needs it.

- Is it possible to modify the Channels to implement Solo Isolate?
Yes, the solo function is very simple on the 4000.

- How is the Sound of the Micpres (They have Transformers) compared to the MPs without Transformers?
You'll need to take other advice on this, and perhaps listen to them yourself. Of course this can be very personal. But remember the transformer in the transformer mic pre is very small (it had to be to fit in the channel strip) so is not great at low frequencies.


- Is there anything special compared to the later, post 83 E Series?
As you mentioned, the tantalum capacitors, which may actually be in better condition now than a later console with electrolytics.
The dynamics sound different. You know the switch on the 9000 which switched the dynamics between two different responses? That was switching between the early 4000 design and the later one.
The VCAs sound much nicer in older desks! Sadly DBX discontinued the original design around 1985/6.
The routing switches I think changed manufacturer? Only important as some will probably need replacing, so you need to know you can find modern ones that will fit.
Probably other things I've forgotten, Somewhere on this site Matt (with a bit of help from me) compiled a nice history of the changes, but I can't find it now? But I can't think of much else that changed until 1986 when I changed the earthing arrangement (which only matters if it is a 64channel or bigger desk) and 1987 with the G series which gave lower distortion.

You can fit any of the later channel cards into a 1980 channel strip, although you will also need to change some pots for later EQs to work to their best.

Obviously I would always recommend everyone to get a 4000  (even though I did more design work on the 9000, the 4000 is much easier to keep going - as you say, no SMD!) But yes definitely worth taking advice from people here on what to look out for on a very old desk!

Cheers, and good luck - we'll be with you to help on your journey!

Andy

[oyanliz]

Hi tlmaen, I will try to answer some of your questions from my view point:


- What is roughly a ok price range (€ per Channel) for a Console like this? Its not recapped, and the routing switches needs full cleaning or replacement. The Rest is working ok. It has Plasma meters wich are not all functioning (75% are ok). It has no Mix Computer, but a build in keyboard, so it was originally equipped with one. Basically it needs to be refurbished.

Its not easy to answer to this question. It depends how well is aesthetically, if patchbay is into the frame, how much light bulbs are missing, how well work all the swhitches as dynamic/eq selector, insert/bell/split, cues pre/small fader... I am not familiarized with plasma meters mantenance, but I think they are hard to mainain and put working well. If the computer is not included, maybe the multiplex cards of each channel have been removed from it... There are a few "SSL GOD" people in this forum who are able to build an entire center section, console frame, computer... from scratch. Depending of how mutch time you have and your technical skills... it could be a pain or very easy to refurbish the console you are looking for. The price of a console could be between 700€-1400€ per channel, depending of the mentioned aspects.

- What functions do exclusively rely on a mix computer (Of course all Automation and TR)? But are the VCA groups are working without a computer? Transport buttons?

I have a console without the computer, I own the original computer of the console but it is disconnected. Adding a few jumper conectors to the computer outputs of the console, the console works perfectly and VCA groups too.


- How much Electrolytic Caps are roughly in each channel? This one is an old one with some Tantals. How much are roughly the costs of recapping (per Channel/Bucket, parts only)?

You can try to search a few posts regarding to capacitors BOM for different strip models. I have some lists downloaded here and made by my own for caps and ICs buying (I attached them). Each strip has around 70-80 electrolytic caps and 45-50 ICs. The rough cost of caps and ICs of each strip could be around 40-50€... not sure.

- Is it possible to modify the Channels to implement Solo Isolate?
- How is the Sound of the Micpres (They have Transformers) compared to the MPs without Transformers?

My console has 32 transformer amp cards and 8 transformerless amp cards. Transformer amp card sound darker and not as clean as transformerless amp cards. I like the saound of both amp cards. I also use external preamps, but all depends on what do you use them for.

- Does anyone have first hand experience with the new PSU types. There is the Atomic and the MPower System. Advantages/Disadvantages over each other?

I own the Atomic psu. I bought it before MPower psu have been released. I think they are similar but I did not compare the specs of bothe. As I have mentioned before, some people have built theyr own psu for the console, so maybe you can build your psu (depending of your skills). A very well shape original psu is important for these consoles (I have one for sell if you need one  ), but I think a new psu is a good improvement for the console.


- Would you fly over to see and test all of the functions of the console by yourself? Feels a bit weird to imagine buying a console where I only saw some Photos and the technical report from the service technician…


When I bought my console, I did it, I flight to London to check the console and test it. I think it is a must do thing, because the perspective of the console shape could be very different for the seller and the buyer.

- Is there anything special compared to the later, post 83 E Series?

Maybe information and schematics of older consoles are harder to find. I do not know if ther is any quality diference regarding to the construction or sound... but sure that someone from this forum could give you more information about this point.

- What questions should one definitely ask prior to purchase? Special things to look at!

When I bought my console, I pulled out every channel one by one, check if all cards were fited in their place, check the visual aspect of each strip internal cards, check patchbay connectors, check if any card of master seccion is missing...
Spare parts and connection wireing are welcome too.

- What should be included in the sale, except the Console/PSU? Guarantees for anything…?

If the console is sold as is... you can not arrange any guarantee agreement. So if you feel capable to work on the console and refurbish it in a reasonable time... Think about the best price for you and go ahead. If you are on doubt and you do not feel secure... do not take risks.

- Anything els to consider?
- Is someone regretting the purchase of a SSL Console :-) ?

My technical skills are limited and sometimes I feel very dissapointed when I am facing an issue of the console. It is very kind people in this forum and many people giving a hand when you have an issue. But sometimes I feel I do not have enough knowlege for maintaining a console like this and hireing a good tech around my area it is not reliable for me. There are some dark sides in the happy looking ¨SSL world¨ of some of us.

I hope my view point of your questions will help you in some way.

Best regards.

Oihan

[tlmaen]

Thank you Andy!

First, to a question you did not ask the SL4000 is very easy to work on. They were built by hand, and everything can be repaired by hand. A key feature of the design was that if it went wrong it had to be VERY fast to get working again.

Yes, I noticed that, straight forward design.

One exception: personally I would not have plasma bargraphs, they are HORRIBLE to work on. It was difficult enough to get them working when they were new. If you do buy this one with plasmas make sure you get LOTS of spares. Or allow for the cost of replacing them with VUs.

Yes, but sometimes you cannot choose. But I have that in mind changing the Bargraphs to VU later...

- What functions do exclusively rely on a mix computer (Of course all Automation and TR)? But are the VCA groups are working without a computer? Transport buttons?
Yes, VCA groups and transport buttons work without the mix computer. As you say, it is only automation and TR which needs it.

How does the Transport function works without a computer? How is it connected to Pro Tools? Serial Machine Control?

- Is it possible to modify the Channels to implement Solo Isolate?
Yes, the solo function is very simple on the 4000.

As far as I know the Isolate function was introduced with the G-Series Consoles. Or what do you mean with 'very simple'
Can it be retrofit by cutting some traces or the like?

- How is the Sound of the Micpres (They have Transformers) compared to the MPs without Transformers?
You'll need to take other advice on this, and perhaps listen to them yourself. Of course this can be very personal. But remember the transformer in the transformer mic pre is very small (it had to be to fit in the channel strip) so is not great at low frequencies.

Do you know that by personal experience? Its a Jensen JE115 wich has a very wide Freq Response (-0,5db @10Hz)

- Is there anything special compared to the later, post 83 E Series?
As you mentioned, the tantalum capacitors, which may actually be in better condition now than a later console with electrolytics.
The dynamics sound different. You know the switch on the 9000 which switched the dynamics between two different responses? That was switching between the early 4000 design and the later one.

Uh, cant remember that one. I know the E/G Switch for the EQs, but not for the Dynamics...?

The VCAs sound much nicer in older desks! Sadly DBX discontinued the original design around 1985/6.

Yes, I heard that. It was the old Aphex 1537 VCA. After 83 they changed it do dbx as far as I know...

The routing switches I think changed manufacturer? Only important as some will probably need replacing, so you need to know you can find modern ones that will fit.
Probably other things I've forgotten, Somewhere on this site Matt (with a bit of help from me) compiled a nice history of the changes, but I can't find it now?

That Thread would be interesting...!

But I can't think of much else that changed until 1986 when I changed the earthing arrangement (which only matters if it is a 64channel or bigger desk) and 1987 with the G series which gave lower distortion.

You can fit any of the later channel cards into a 1980 channel strip, although you will also need to change some pots for later EQs to work to their best.

Obviously I would always recommend everyone to get a 4000  (even though I did more design work on the 9000, the 4000 is much easier to keep going - as you say, no SMD!) But yes definitely worth taking advice from people here on what to look out for on a very old desk!

That sounds somehow a bit biased :-)

Cheers, and good luck - we'll be with you to help on your journey!

THANKS!

Andy
[/quote]

[tlmaen]

Thanks Oihan!

Its not easy to answer to this question. It depends how well is aesthetically, if patchbay is into the frame, how much light bulbs are missing, how well work all the swhitches as dynamic/eq selector, insert/bell/split, cues pre/small fader... I am not familiarized with plasma meters mantenance, but I think they are hard to mainain and put working well. If the computer is not included, maybe the multiplex cards of each channel have been removed from it... There are a few "SSL GOD" people in this forum who are able to build an entire center section, console frame, computer... from scratch. Depending of how mutch time you have and your technical skills... it could be a pain or very easy to refurbish the console you are looking for. The price of a console could be between 700€-1400€ per channel, depending of the mentioned aspects.

The Switches in this Console are 40 Years old. I think a lot of them need attention...
My tech skills are quite good so this will probably more on the 'easy' side. Other wise I would think about it more than twice...

You can try to search a few posts regarding to capacitors BOM for different strip models. I have some lists downloaded here and made by my own for caps and ICs buying (I attached them). Each strip has around 70-80 electrolytic caps and 45-50 ICs. The rough cost of caps and ICs of each strip could be around 40-50€... not sure.

Thanks for the attachments, that helps!

My console has 32 transformer amp cards and 8 transformerless amp cards. Transformer amp card sound darker and not as clean as transformerless amp cards. I like the saound of both amp cards. I also use external preamps, but all depends on what do you use them for.[/b]

Great!

- Does anyone have first hand experience with the new PSU types. There is the Atomic and the MPower System. Advantages/Disadvantages over each other?

I own the Atomic psu. I bought it before MPower psu have been released. I think they are similar but I did not compare the specs of bothe. As I have mentioned before, some people have built theyr own psu for the console, so maybe you can build your psu (depending of your skills). A very well shape original psu is important for these consoles (I have one for sell if you need one  ), but I think a new psu is a good improvement for the console.

I though of building a PSU by myself, but reading some threads about the Atomic PSU, I would buy one from Atomic or Toft.
Dont want to take any risk here. There is a reason that it took some time to make it right. Also the extensive Filtering and safty functions are more than welcome.

When I bought my console, I did it, I flight to London to check the console and test it. I think it is a must do thing, because the perspective of the console shape could be very different for the seller and the buyer.

Ok, considering this...

When I bought my console, I pulled out every channel one by one, check if all cards were fited in their place, check the visual aspect of each strip internal cards, check patchbay connectors, check if any card of master seccion is missing...
Spare parts and connection wireing are welcome too.

Wow! Isnt it enough to check most of the functions in each channel? If the EQ and Dynamic works, the Cards are most likely fitted...?!

- What should be included in the sale, except the Console/PSU? Guarantees for anything…?

If the console is sold as is... you can not arrange any guarantee agreement. So if you feel capable to work on the console and refurbish it in a reasonable time... Think about the best price for you and go ahead. If you are on doubt and you do not feel secure... do not take risks.

No doubts at all right now...

- Anything els to consider?
- Is someone regretting the purchase of a SSL Console :-) ?

My technical skills are limited and sometimes I feel very dissapointed when I am facing an issue of the console. It is very kind people in this forum and many people giving a hand when you have an issue. But sometimes I feel I do not have enough knowlege for maintaining a console like this and hireing a good tech around my area it is not reliable for me. There are some dark sides in the happy looking ¨SSL world¨ of some of us.

Understand, hope it will not be more difficult than fixing my AMS RMX16. Thats a constant pita 

I hope my view point of your questions will help you in some way.

Best regards.


Great, Thanks!

Oihan
[/quote]

[amillar]

What functions do exclusively rely on a mix computer (Of course all Automation and TR)? But are the VCA groups are working without a computer? Transport buttons?
Yes, VCA groups and transport buttons work without the mix computer. As you say, it is only automation and TR which needs it.
How does the Transport function works without a computer? How is it connected to Pro Tools? Serial Machine Control?
The remotes should simply come out to a D type connector under the patchbay, the switch contacts and lamps simply wired individually. There are a number of variations. Remember this was designed in the 1970s...what is this Pro Tools of which you people from the future speak?  


- Is it possible to modify the Channels to implement Solo Isolate?
Yes, the solo function is very simple on the 4000.

As far as I know the Isolate function was introduced with the G-Series Consoles. Or what do you mean with 'very simple'
Can it be retrofit by cutting some traces or the like?
Yes, I designed it into the G series!! Yes, you can easily cut the solo bus and fit an isolate switch wherever you like. Simplest is to break into the ribbon cable between bays.


- How is the Sound of the Micpres (They have Transformers) compared to the MPs without Transformers?
You'll need to take other advice on this, and perhaps listen to them yourself. Of course this can be very personal. But remember the transformer in the transformer mic pre is very small (it had to be to fit in the channel strip) so is not great at low frequencies.

Do you know that by personal experience? Its a Jensen JE115 wich has a very wide Freq Response (-0,5db @10Hz)
Yes  Particularly from working with Paul Frindle on the design of the G series mic amp, we looked carefully at all the earlier mic and line amps. I do like those Jensen transformers, I still have several around. But as they say on Star Trek - you canna' break the laws of physics.


- Is there anything special compared to the later, post 83 E Series?
As you mentioned, the tantalum capacitors, which may actually be in better condition now than a later console with electrolytics.
The dynamics sound different. You know the switch on the 9000 which switched the dynamics between two different responses? That was switching between the early 4000 design and the later one.

Uh, cant remember that one. I know the E/G Switch for the EQs, but not for the Dynamics...?
It's the Peak detect option on the Compressor (selected by pulling the RATIO switch up). That and the E/G switch were actually the two hardest parts to design of the 9000 channel.

[tlmaen]

Ah, Amillar!
Great to have first Hand information from You!

Good news with the Solo Isolate!

Really Didnt know that Peak Detection Feature, nice one!

As you probably know the evolution of the different Revisions, can you recommend buying the very first E-Series?
Or did it significantly improve on some important spots with the later models (post '83)?

How is the Quality of the PCBs?
Have some gear were the traces start to come off or have quite a lot of bubbles. (Talking AMS...)
Makes recapping a nightmare.

Thanks!

[amillar]

Actually there will be people here who know much more about that than I do - I mostly saw the desks when they were nice and new!

The very early desks did not have solder resist on many of the PCBs (the PCB's weren't green). I have a 1979 dynamics card next to me now that is like that, so the 1980 desk may be the same.  I don't think you will find the tracks lift, but there may be some corrosion on the tracks. It depends what atmosphere the desk has been in.

There were upgrades to the components in the very early years to improve reliability, so I hope someone here can give better advice on how reliable a 1980 desk is, but from the early 1980s onwards the reliability should be pretty similar. I joined SSL in 1984 and I don't remember us making any reliability improvements to the desk (it was my job there for a few years to look for things like that).

I would guess that what is more important is how well the desk has been treated - is it full of tobacco / dried red wine / other substances! Also, check for a lot of later modifications, the modifications can cause much more unreliability than the original build.

I recently had the chance to see inside a desk from 1985, and it looked like new inside! Which was very impressive, given that this was probably a desk I'd seen when it was new. The only places the PCBs had suffered were where people had made later modifications to them. And even then, the quality of the PCBs is so good that you can wire link over broken / lifting tracks.

One big change I didn't mention before was the potentiometers, they were originally white (Bourns?) and changed to blue (Clarostat) sometime in the late 1970s / early 1980s - I don't know if there's any difference in reliability there? The blue pots are amazing, they go on forever. Just as well - all 4000s would be scrap otherwise!

Hope that helps a bit,

Andy

[waltzingbear]

don't remember the years, but some of the desks have Isostat switches on the routing, they are an odd dimension and not directly replaceable. Not desirable

cheers
Alan

[horizonsound]

These are the four types of routing switches I have come across. The top ones are the dialstat/isostat and have the same foot print.
The bottom two are Alps, and one unknown type. They both have the same footprint though the one on the bottom right has it's feet deeper in to the card. It was used with flat top switch caps instead of the later rounded top ones. In this photo I had put the rounded ones one the card. They were also soldered direct to the module via a 90° header rather than the EDAC style connector pins.



Andy, I recently serviced a console where something had been spilled on it creating all sorts of issues with an older fader bus card with exposed tracks. Lots of repairs to the traces had been done, though the substance had got in to the 20way ribbon connector and corroded the contacts over time. It must have been so bad they replaced the lower back plane, but did not check the connectors.

Anthony.

[Richealey]

I started out on a very early SSL 4040. Delivered in 1979. I started at the studio in 1981.
I believe I found your console listing if the console is in London. From the pictures you can tell
it’s early as there are no frame supports between every 8 modules. Personally, I’d hold out for something newer. There were many audio improvements between the first consoles and the G console.
I remember doing many mods x 40 in the first years. We changed out the entire center section on our console around 1984. The original had no midpoint structural supports and the bottom sagged as well as many audio upgrades. The small faders were very cheap on that old console compared to the G console. To me the biggest deal breaker on what you’re looking at is the plasma meters. Obsolete decades ago, and as Andy said a bitch to work on. They’ll zap you good ! Upgrading to VU – where are you going to find the metal work and meters with SSL cards. Maybe there’s some out there and at what cost. I’d also do some searching for the plasma meter elements themselves and see if any are available. I’m pretty sure the Neve VR used the same plasma elements. The tape transport remote is useless for Protools. Protools doesn’t give transport access. There was a box Allen Smart made that I remember being around in the 90s that did some kind of interfacing with Protools. Your console doesn’t have a computer, so it has no “Go to Mix” function anyways. Most of the switches will probably need changing and what you’re going to find is that that switch footprint is obsolete. Jeff at CAPI makes a new pcb that will work with new switches for the routing. I don’t see them on his web page, but I know a studio that has them installed.
Anyway – my vote is pass and wait for something better to come along.

My 2 bits
Richard

[horizonsound]

Someone should check in with Gareth Connor around potential VU's.
He was working on a replacement system, and they looked exceptional.
Would solve the plasma issue, which I agree is a real pain.

...actually, just got in contact and will report back.

Anthony.

[tlmaen]

...There were many audio improvements between the first consoles and the G console.
I remember doing many mods x 40 in the first years. We changed out the entire center section on our console around 1984. The original had no midpoint structural supports and the bottom sagged as well as many audio upgrades. The small faders were very cheap on that old console compared to the G console.

Can you mention some of the Mods? Good chances that owners of the first series did all that upgrades?
Was that a different brand than P&G?

Thanks,
Tlmaen

[amillar]

I've found Matt's "history" thread (see the superb update by Max down that thread):
http://forum.sslmixed.com/index.php?topic=1250.0

On the small faders, they were the new style P+G faders by 1984, but not sure when they came in.

[Tonemiester]

I would highly encourage a new power supply. I have an Atomic and it can live in the control room. I have to sing Andy's praises. I did NOT go over to the UK and check the console out before buying but talked to Andy, who maintained it, many times and when it got over here for the most part fired right up.
Mike