SSL G+ Ultimation maintenance

[Artur D'Assumpção]

Hi guys,

I'm currently looking into one of the latest G+ 4000 consoles (1994) which has Ultimation. Can anyone give me some hints on how it's the experience to maintain the Ultimation faders (latest revisions)? Is it a headache or is perfectly doable? What kind of troubles I can expect and what kind of added maintenance tasks I might expect that I wouldn't have with standard VCA faders?

Thanks in advance guys,

Cheers,

Artur

[brewery]

hi artur,

94 is not really that late for a G+, but that doesn't say much about the condition.
first of all, i would only go for ultimation if you really want motors/are used to working with them.
i wouldn't want to be without it, but vca faders are for sure less trouble.
very late versions have the same hybrid board than the J series, but the faders are still the same old P&G, which do tend to act up and get sticky if you don't keep them clean. cleaning and relubing them is possible, but long, and re-threating the motors is a bitch.
you also need to align the analog path to the vca path on a regular basis on every fader (you absolutely need the dedicated ultimation extender for that)

then there are the motors themselfs. they can break, and replacements aren't easy to get anymore. there used to be a nice one from precision motor works, but i think i bought the last ones that were still available a few years back (and only have one spare left by now)

overall, ultimation was a bit of an afterthought from ssl, and it's not the best and most reliable system out there. flying faders is better in every way, but i don't like any of the neves i could ever afford.

lastly there's the sound. i do think they sound better, more direct, or whatever you want to call it. but it's very subtle, and might not be worht the hassle for you.

make sure to check an ultimation system thoroughly. don't just run the wave, do the full fader test, including touch sens etc. if any of them jitter around or feel bumpy when you move them, you'll spend a lot of time fixing them. i would also try to have at least a few spare faders around.

paavo (kilmister) knows a lot about ultimation electronics, and he might have a few more tips.

[kilmister]

Hey guys.

Not much to add to Brewerys post but here's couple things that jumped in my mind.

Fader module is mostly smd stuff, so you need decent tools when you have to repair one.
You might want to check that all touch sense hybrids are same in every fader. Keith from Audio Recyled has told me that mixed setup might work but you can expect some odd behaviour (don't know better what he ment) As Brewery mentioned there's at least two versions of them: Original 4K version and later on 9K version. 9K is easy to identify as it has tiny trimmer capacitor, and just next to it there's 5V regulator 78L05.

I have repaired few of them. Most common failure has been fried FET in touch sense circuitry. Symptom is sticky fader (touch sense don't work hence motor tries to keep it in place until stuck sense releases it) which starts to crowl from bottom to up. I've also found some fried IC chips that handels logic operations. IRCC it messed Totall Recall in that channel.

-Paavo

[Artur D'Assumpção]

Hi,

Guys thanks you so much for your time in giving me such comprehensive responses.

So of what I've gathered from all your replies is that I can expect more maintenance hassles with an Ultimation system but if I have the electronics know how and tools I can indeed maintain it at the expense of laborious work.

I have some doubts that I would kindly ask you to reply regard the issues you guys posted:

1st - I already knew this particuar issue with the VCA path and the Ultimation path that need to be calibrated so you can use both (motors on and motors off) in a mix without having volume jumps. I was told that despite a precise calibration that you will always have 1/2 or 1 dB differences between both paths at some point along the fader level and that this was an idea of SSL that didn't worked that good. The best was to avoid this function and just mix 100% in VCA or 100% in ultimation. What is your experience with this issue?

Could you also elaborate a little more on the process of Ultimation VS. VCA Calibration? How is it done, how often I can expect to do it, and in average how much time does it take to calibrate one fader?

2nd - Regarding ultimation faders what's your experience on them? Can I expect them to break easily? Of the most common issues which of them are reparable and which of them will most probably force me to replace the entire unit due the fact of non existent parts anymore?

3nd - If you find yourself in the need of replacing a fader unit, is there in the NOS or 2nd hand market units easy to find?

Finally, I would like to ask you for your honest opinion. This is a console that it's in 99% shape and will be put up to specs before reaching my hands. Despite that, things will break. Should I keep the Ultimation or should I just switch it all to VCA?

Thank you so much for you time, you guys rocks!

Cheers,

Artur
 

[brewery]

even when working in 'motors on' mode, the audio path switches to vca whenever you touch the fader, and you want the level jumps of course be as small as possible.
i do it about once a year, and some faders seem to be very stable, across the whole path, while others need more adjustment and don't get as close.

if you don't need motors for your workflow, i would definitely go vca (if that's an option)

another thing to remember is, that even a well maintained console probably wasn't cared for as much in the last years prior to the sale. ultimation faders are the first thing to act up if that's the case.

i bought at least 4 ultimation consoles for outside clients in the last years, and there were always problems with the faders, even on otherwise clean consoles.

and no, spares are not easy to find, at least not cheap. i think aes pro audio has a few, but they're really expensive. recycled has faders with motors though (not sure about price tho)

again, i love my ultimation system, but there is a price you have to pay. 9K faders (think they're alps) are way more reliable.

[Artur D'Assumpção]

Can you retro fit 9k faders on 4k G+ consoles?

I come from the new generation, so I'm used to motorized faders. Despite that I'm sure I can also find my way with non-moving faders.

What I am afraid with an ultimation system console is not the extra-maintenance , but to be left with a system that will eventually break little by little and in the end I will have to pay more to switch it to a VCA fader system anyway because I couldn't fix or replace those ultimation fader modules.

Although the console WILL come fully revised and up to specs, things will break in the future. So my dilemma is to buy this console with the ultimation system, or just ask to replace it with a VCA one.

Aren't there any current expectations to have modern replacements or fix parts for these units? I saw on an older thread that you guys designed and manufactured, for the community purposes, a bunch of ultimation touch sensitive cards. Isn't this possible for all parts? I can imagine that the hardest part may be the motors themselves...

Cheers,

Artur

[Artur D'Assumpção]

Hi guys,

Getting back on this topic. Could any of you share a procedure on how to correctly clean an ultimation fader without wrecking the fader? I know that if you don't do it correctly you'll mess up the motor wheel tension and it will never be the same again.

If it's not asking too much, if one of you guys could just make a movie doing the cleaning I would be really appreciated and also it would be a great addon to our maintenance videos collection!

Thanks you!

Cheers,

Artur

[ULH]

I have repaired few of them. Most common failure has been fried FET in touch sense circuitry. Symptom is sticky fader (touch sense don't work hence motor tries to keep it in place until stuck sense releases it) which starts to crowl from bottom to up. I've also found some fried IC chips that handels logic operations. IRCC it messed Totall Recall in that channel.

-Paavo

Hi Paavo

We do have a fader that seems to have the sticky and crawling upwards fader issue. Can you detail which FET you're talking about? Is it in the small Penney&Giles SMD touch sense circuit board or after i.e.. maybe TR6 or TR4 referring to T82353.71 schematics?

Thanks a lot in advance!

Uffe

[kilmister]

IIRC it is TR6. It's the one that gets signal to it's gate from touch sense hybrid H1 (lower right corner in the schematic)

-Paavo

[Artur D'Assumpção]

I offer a pint of beer to anyone that makes a video explaining how to clean properly an Ultimation Fader! \o/

[ULH]

Thanks Paavo. Measured one of those TR6 and it measured weird compared to a working Ultimation fader so I will try to put a new TR6 in.

Regarding beer I have just been cleaning two. Will try to do a video next time. The tricky part is that the main sticker covering the aluminium surface of the fader front plate is meant to be taken off so you can unscrew the two main screws holding the fader in place. And they are expensive. Recycle sells them for around 8 £ I think. But I have found that if you a very careful the end piece of the P&G fader can be slightly bend to get the fader out and clean everything inside. The wiper part needs to be glided out in the opposite end of where the cables go out of the black aluminium fader profile. We clean carefully with isopropanol also on the wipers and uses kontaflon (a kind of teflon oil) on the guide rail before assembly. The tricky part is that you need to desolder the motor in order to get the conductive plast rails out of the the black alu profile for cleaning while ensuring that the string is kept in place by using small pieces of tape to the alu profile. Difficult to describe in words....

But I am not a pro just an aspiring SSL tech and owner learning by doing so maybe some of the pro guys like brewery and Paavo can chip in here?

[Artur D'Assumpção]

Hi UHL,

That seems a bit complex indeed, and I imagine it's a very sensitive procedure.

I think there's a better way to clean the fader track without having to disassemble everything.

Man you have to make a movie with that procedure. I am in need of that to open and clean a fader is not behaving properly.

I never understood why haven't SSL done the aluminium surface with precut holes for the screws. I think there's also some screws for the touch sense calibration right?

Cheers,

Artur

[kilmister]

I'm quite sure video has been linked somewhere to the forum allready: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHnEJ2y5nv8
It shows quite well how P&G should be cleaned and IMO it's not too tricky. Assembling string back to roller is instead.

-Paavo

[waltzingbear]

That video is not bad, does a few things that are not needed, but do no harm (no need to remove top rail).

Regarding the use of alcohol to clean the element. DON'T. There is no need and it is advised against in the P&G documentation. Use only clean water. Or nothing but a dry swab. This works fine and does no harm to the element.

Do clean the wiper element with solvent.

Cheers
Alan

[Artur D'Assumpção]

That video is for a VCA fader. Ultimation fader is totally different beast.